[109063] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Rendered fat
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Thu Feb 23 04:35:02 2017
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 09:46:43 -0500
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com>
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On 2/22/2017 1:39 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
> Qu'wIjmo' jIyevnISpu'
I'm not going to call this use of *-pu'* categorically wrong, but I
suspect you're thinking of past tense instead of aspect here. Are you
conceiving of a need to pause that came to an end, or are you just
talking about a need to pause? Not that the pause eventually came to an
end, which it obviously did since you're writing now, but that it came
to an end in the circumstance you're describing with the word *yIyavnISpu'.*
> 'ej Do'Ha' qaSpu' jaj bID je jItaHqa'laHpa'.
Stylistic note: *jItaHqa'laHpa'*/before I can resume enduring/ seems
circuitous. Enduring what? Answering *(**jIjangqa'laHpa')*? Writing
(composing) *(jIqonqa'laHpa')*?
> nI' QInmeymaj
reH jISIv: nI' QIn pagh tIq QIn. mu'tlhegh lugh vISovbe'.
> vaj loQ vImISchoH.
*jImISchoH*
> jItaghqa'meH Daq vItu'.
ghItlhmeH Daq DaSamnISpu'?
> jIjatlh:
>> jagh QaHbe'nISlu' 'a vuDDaj meq qaq buSHa'law' SuStel.
> jatlh SuStel:
>
> nuqjatlh? /SuStel seems to ignore his preferable opinion./
>
> I should have said something like vuDDaj vuybogh meq qaq'e' buSHa'law'
> SuStel.
>
*vuy?* mu'vetlh vISovbe'.
> And of course the preferable reason: wot tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je
> ngaSbogh mu'tlhegh naDpu''a' marq 'oqranD?
>
wa' naDpu'be' 'ej ghItlhpu'be'.
> In my opinion, the lack of canon -lu' plus -wI' is a stronger argument
> than your inference from the rules of TKD. MO can always refine the
> rules outlined in his "grammatical sketch," and he could easily say
> the wording in TKD 3.2.2 fails to take into account one special case,
> but if he were to start allowing -lu' plus -wI' at this point, some
> explanation for its apparent rarity is called for.
>
If Okrand starts doing something, that takes priorty, obviously.
But a lack of evidence cannot reasonably be considered a stronger
argument than drawing inferences from the rules. Okrand never says that
Klingons don't add*wala wala bIng beng* to the end of encyclopedia
entries written in Klingon; that doesn't mean we should advocate that in
our own Klingon encyclopedia.
Your argument doesn't stem from lack of evidence anyway. It comes from
analyzing the rules in TKD /as they are demonstrated in English
translations/. You're taking the rule that *-wI'* turns the verb into
its subject, thinking that the subject of *leghlu'* /it is seen/ is
/it,/ and concluding that the /it,/ /that which is seen/, is the result.
But while the /it/ is the subject in English, it is not in Klingon. The
Klingon has no subject, and therefore nothing to turn into when a *-wI'*
is added.
>> In English passive voice, this is true. *-lu'* is not English
>> passive voice. In Klingon, when *-lu'* is added, the object
>> remains the object.
>>
>> This is the language used to decribe what goes on in Klingon. My
>> point is the construction i
>
> Your sentence seems to have been cut off.
>
>
> Oops! I think I was saying the language used in TKD attempts to
> describe Klingon grammar in terms familiar to the reader, but that
> Klingons do not necessarily conceive of their grammar in those terms.
> Therefore there is a danger of accepting TKD's explanations too
> literally, and based on that, forcing an interpretation of Klingon
> grammar that Klingons would rightly consider alien.
I partly agree. TKD certainly is not written in careful linguistic
terms. It uses many linguistic terms, but these are not usually defined
for the reader; you have to already know what subjects and objects and
nouns and verbs are, for instance. Taking TKD too literally is indeed
fraught with peril.
However, that is not to say that a Klingon grammarian's analysis of
Klingon is the only possible analysis. First remember the fictional
background of the book. It is written by a Federation government
committee, or a scientific council created by the Federation.
English-speaking linguists have prepared it for an English-speaking
audience. They describe separate parts of the language that Klingon
linguists lump together.
The fiction of TKD is therefore that it is /describing/ the rules of
Klingon as it appears naturally, rather than /prescribing/ rules to be
followed. The rules that TKD describe actually exist and function in
Klingon, whether or not Klingon linguists acknowledge or categorize
them. There really is a distinction between question words and
exclamations, even though Klingon linguists just call them *chuvmey.*
The language used to describe *-lu'* and *-wI'* describe incompatible
functions. *-lu'* tells us there is no subject. *-wI'* tells us the verb
becomes its subject. These cannot be reconciled by any rules described
in TKD. If Okrand were to come and tell us that, in fact, here's what
combining those two suffixes means, then that'd be a new rule he'd
discovered in talking with Maltz and we could apply it. Languages
sometimes have rules that seem nonsensical. But we cannot infer your
preferred rule from anything we have been given about the rules of
Klingon. You have inferred the rule based on the English translations of
Klingon sentences.
>
>
>>
>>> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom chut je,
>>
>> /The rule of accord envisions a new, hidden target noun/?
>>
>> My language here is awkward. An example is called for. When
>> {mulegh ghaH} is changed to {vIleghlu'}. The rule of accord
>> requires the prefix {vI-}, so although semantically there is a
>> null agent and first-person singular patient, grammatically the
>> rule of accord treats this situation as if there were a
>> first-person singular subject and third-person singular object,
>> although that object is merely a grammatical fiction. This is
>> clearly a special situation, and I have to wonder whether OVS
>> accurately reflects how Klingon linguists would interpret it.
>
> *mulegh ghaH* is not changed to *vIleghlu'.* You construct
> *vIleghlu'* directly. There is no transformation from one to
> another. When I am thinking in Klingon and I intend to use an
> indefinite subject, my mind goes straight to *vI-* being the
> proper prefix.
>
> The *vI-* prefix does not, according to the description in TKD,
> treat *vIleghlu'* as if it had a first-person singular subject and
> a third-person singular object. TKD explicitly says the prefixes
> are used to mean something else. With *-lu',* *vI-* MEANS
> first-person object. There's no grammatical fiction going on; the
> prefixes are simply reassigned for *-lu'.*
>
> Now, is it possible that there is some "grammatical fiction"
> reason WHY the prefixes are reassigned? Maybe, but that's pure
> conjecture and there's no evidence for it anywhere.
>
> I wasn't implying that vIleghlu' was a form of mulegh ghaH, but rather
> considering the effect on the prefix if the speaker rephrased the
> sentence to eliminate the explicit agent. It's impossible (for me,
> anyway) not to wonder how verbs with -lu' came to have the prefixes
> they do. I expect that, as with any language, that it's just natural
> and unquestioned for most native speakers but that it entered speech
> for a very definite reason that speakers didn't take for granted at
> the time. What that reason could be I won't even try to guess.
You have now more than once invoked the language of semantics with
/agent/. When comparing English passive and active sentences, the shift
of agent from object to subject is significant. Let's look at the case
for Klingon *-lu'.*
I'm going to use a more active verb than *legh;* there is an argument to
be made that there is no agent in seeing. Let's use *qIp* /hit./
*jagh vIqIp jIH*/I hit the enemy
/Here, *jIH* is the subject and the agent. *jagh* is the object and the
patient.
*jagh qIplu' */someone/something hits the enemy; the enemy is hit
/Here, there is no subject or agent. *jagh* is the object and the patient.
There has been no shifting around of either syntactic or semantic roles.
Here's another:
*jIH muqIp ghaH//*/he hits me/
*ghaH* is the subject and the agent; *jIH* is the object and the patient
*jIH vIqIplu'*/someone/something hits me; I am hit
/There is no subject or agent; *jIH* is the object and the patient.
See? No shift at all in either syntax or semantics. We're simply
eliminating the subject from consideration. The fact that prefixes are
reassigned is completely irrelevant. It's just a thing to memorize; it
doesn't affect the grammar in any other way.
>>
>>> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam chu'
>>> tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp 'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'.
>>> moHaqvaD chuHwI' DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp. ghu'vam vIqelmeH
>>> DIvI' Hol qechmey /subject/ /object/ je, jImISqu'choH. 'ach
>>> vuDlIj QIjmeH /subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel. rarchu'be'
>>> tlhIngan Hol, qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.
>>>
>>> ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj.
>>> 'oSlaHbe' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je, 'eb lonlu'pu'
>>> 'ej pagh chavlu'.
>>
>> Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.
>>
>> 'a chaq SaH tlhInganpu'. 'eb tu'DI', lulo' 'e' bot nuq?
>> lubotlaHbe'ba' tera'ngan Holtej. 'a 'eb lulo' luneHbe' tlhIngan,
>> SIghlaHbe' je tera'ngan Holtej.
>
> Arguing over whether a Klingon would or would not care about a
> particular grammatical feature is not a useful line of reasoning,
> in my view.
>
> No, but as any of us who've studied a natural language have observed
> (and it wouldn't surprise me if this applies to every subscriber on
> this list), native speakers are under no obligation to speak the
> language the way the student expects, no matter how good the student's
> reasoning. Our reasoning is ultimately of a kind with that of the
> toddler who says "goed" instead of "went." Some of my favorite moments
> in studying Klingon are Maltz's revelations that Klingons don't speak
> the language the way we'd expect.
>
> There's much to be said for your conservative approach, that it is
> less likely to generate Klingon expressions that no Klingon would
> accept than an approach that accepts any Klingon expression that canon
> doesn't expressly forbid.
Yes, sometimes in our ignorance we say the grammatical equivalent of
/goed/ instead of /went./ You're asking us to say /wented./
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2017 1:39 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Qu'wIjmo' jIyevnISpu'</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I'm not going to call this use of <b>-pu'</b> categorically
wrong, but I suspect you're thinking of past tense instead of
aspect here. Are you conceiving of a need to pause that came to an
end, or are you just talking about a need to pause? Not that the
pause eventually came to an end, which it obviously did since
you're writing now, but that it came to an end in the circumstance
you're describing with the word <b>yIyavnISpu'.</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> 'ej Do'Ha' qaSpu' jaj bID je jItaHqa'laHpa'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Stylistic note: <b>jItaHqa'laHpa'</b><i> before I can resume
enduring</i> seems circuitous. Enduring what? Answering <b>(</b><b>jIjangqa'laHpa')</b>?
Writing (composing) <b>(jIqonqa'laHpa')</b>?</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> nI' QInmeymaj</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>reH jISIv: nI' QIn pagh tIq QIn. mu'tlhegh lugh vISovbe'.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> vaj loQ vImISchoH.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>jImISchoH</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> jItaghqa'meH Daq vItu'.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>ghItlhmeH Daq DaSamnISpu'?<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">jIjatlh:<br>
<div><span class="gmail-im">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="margin-left:40px">jagh QaHbe'nISlu' 'a
vuDDaj meq qaq buSHa'law' SuStel.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
jatlh SuStel:<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-left:40px">
<p>nuqjatlh? <i>SuStel seems to ignore his preferable
opinion.</i></p>
</div>
<p>I should have said something like <span class="gmail-im">vuDDaj
vuybogh meq qaq'e' buSHa'law' SuStel.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>vuy?</b> mu'vetlh vISovbe'.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p><span class="gmail-im">And of course the preferable reason: </span>wot
tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je ngaSbogh mu'tlhegh
naDpu''a' marq 'oqranD?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>wa' naDpu'be' 'ej ghItlhpu'be'.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p>In my opinion, the lack of canon -lu' plus -wI' is a stronger
argument than your inference from the rules of TKD. MO can
always refine the rules outlined in his "grammatical sketch,"
and he could easily say the wording in TKD 3.2.2 fails to take
into account one special case, but if he were to start
allowing -lu' plus -wI' at this point, some explanation for
its apparent rarity is called for.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>If Okrand starts doing something, that takes priorty, obviously.</p>
<p>But a lack of evidence cannot reasonably be considered a stronger
argument than drawing inferences from the rules. Okrand never says
that Klingons don't add<b> wala wala bIng beng</b> to the end of
encyclopedia entries written in Klingon; that doesn't mean we
should advocate that in our own Klingon encyclopedia.</p>
<p>Your argument doesn't stem from lack of evidence anyway. It comes
from analyzing the rules in TKD <i>as they are demonstrated in
English translations</i>. You're taking the rule that <b>-wI'</b>
turns the verb into its subject, thinking that the subject of <b>leghlu'</b>
<i>it is seen</i> is <i>it,</i> and concluding that the <i>it,</i>
<i>that which is seen</i>, is the result. But while the <i>it</i>
is the subject in English, it is not in Klingon. The Klingon has
no subject, and therefore nothing to turn into when a <b>-wI'</b>
is added.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="gmail-"></span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">In English passive
voice, this is true. <b>-lu'</b> is not
English passive voice. In Klingon, when <b>-lu'</b>
is added, the object remains the object.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is the language used to decribe what
goes on in Klingon. My point is the
construction i <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p>Your sentence seems to have been cut off.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oops! I think I was saying the language used in TKD
attempts to describe Klingon grammar in terms familiar to
the reader, but that Klingons do not necessarily conceive
of their grammar in those terms. Therefore there is a
danger of accepting TKD's explanations too literally, and
based on that, forcing an interpretation of Klingon
grammar that Klingons would rightly consider alien.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I partly agree. TKD certainly is not written in careful
linguistic terms. It uses many linguistic terms, but these are not
usually defined for the reader; you have to already know what
subjects and objects and nouns and verbs are, for instance. Taking
TKD too literally is indeed fraught with peril.</p>
<p>However, that is not to say that a Klingon grammarian's analysis
of Klingon is the only possible analysis. First remember the
fictional background of the book. It is written by a Federation
government committee, or a scientific council created by the
Federation. English-speaking linguists have prepared it for an
English-speaking audience. They describe separate parts of the
language that Klingon linguists lump together.</p>
<p>The fiction of TKD is therefore that it is <i>describing</i> the
rules of Klingon as it appears naturally, rather than <i>prescribing</i>
rules to be followed. The rules that TKD describe actually exist
and function in Klingon, whether or not Klingon linguists
acknowledge or categorize them. There really is a distinction
between question words and exclamations, even though Klingon
linguists just call them <b>chuvmey.</b></p>
<p>The language used to describe <b>-lu'</b> and <b>-wI'</b>
describe incompatible functions. <b>-lu'</b> tells us there is no
subject. <b>-wI'</b> tells us the verb becomes its subject. These
cannot be reconciled by any rules described in TKD. If Okrand were
to come and tell us that, in fact, here's what combining those two
suffixes means, then that'd be a new rule he'd discovered in
talking with Maltz and we could apply it. Languages sometimes have
rules that seem nonsensical. But we cannot infer your preferred
rule from anything we have been given about the rules of Klingon.
You have inferred the rule based on the English translations of
Klingon sentences.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="gmail-"></span><br>
<span class="gmail-"></span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="gmail-"> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p> </p>
<span> <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom
chut je,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p><i>The rule of accord envisions a new,
hidden target noun</i>?<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>My language here is awkward. An example
is called for. When {mulegh ghaH} is changed
to {vIleghlu'}. The rule of accord requires
the prefix {vI-}, so although semantically
there is a null agent and first-person
singular patient, grammatically the rule of
accord treats this situation as if there
were a first-person singular subject and
third-person singular object, although that
object is merely a grammatical fiction. This
is clearly a special situation, and I have
to wonder whether OVS accurately reflects
how Klingon linguists would interpret it.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p><b>mulegh ghaH</b> is not changed to <b>vIleghlu'.</b>
You construct <b>vIleghlu'</b> directly. There is no
transformation from one to another. When I am thinking
in Klingon and I intend to use an indefinite subject,
my mind goes straight to <b>vI-</b> being the proper
prefix.<br>
</p>
<p>The <b>vI-</b> prefix does not, according to the
description in TKD, treat <b>vIleghlu'</b> as if it
had a first-person singular subject and a third-person
singular object. TKD explicitly says the prefixes are
used to mean something else. With <b>-lu',</b> <b>vI-</b>
MEANS first-person object. There's no grammatical
fiction going on; the prefixes are simply reassigned
for <b>-lu'.</b></p>
<p>Now, is it possible that there is some "grammatical
fiction" reason WHY the prefixes are reassigned?
Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and there's no
evidence for it anywhere.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I wasn't implying that vIleghlu' was a form of mulegh
ghaH, but rather considering the effect on the prefix if
the speaker rephrased the sentence to eliminate the
explicit agent. It's impossible (for me, anyway) not to
wonder how verbs with -lu' came to have the prefixes they
do. I expect that, as with any language, that it's just
natural and unquestioned for most native speakers but that
it entered speech for a very definite reason that speakers
didn't take for granted at the time. What that reason
could be I won't even try to guess.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>You have now more than once invoked the language of semantics
with <i>agent</i>. When comparing English passive and active
sentences, the shift of agent from object to subject is
significant. Let's look at the case for Klingon <b>-lu'.</b></p>
<p>I'm going to use a more active verb than <b>legh;</b> there is
an argument to be made that there is no agent in seeing. Let's use
<b>qIp</b> <i>hit.</i></p>
<p><b>jagh vIqIp jIH</b><i> I hit the enemy<br>
</i>Here, <b>jIH</b> is the subject and the agent. <b>jagh</b>
is the object and the patient.</p>
<p><b>jagh qIplu' </b><i>someone/something hits the enemy; the
enemy is hit<br>
</i>Here, there is no subject or agent. <b>jagh</b> is the object
and the patient.</p>
<p>There has been no shifting around of either syntactic or semantic
roles.</p>
<p>Here's another:<br>
</p>
<b>jIH muqIp ghaH<i> </i></b><i>he hits me</i><br>
<p><b>ghaH</b> is the subject and the agent; <b>jIH</b> is the
object and the patient</p>
<p><b>jIH vIqIplu'</b><i> someone/something hits me; I am hit<br>
</i>There is no subject or agent; <b>jIH</b> is the object and
the patient.</p>
<p>See? No shift at all in either syntax or semantics. We're simply
eliminating the subject from consideration. The fact that prefixes
are reassigned is completely irrelevant. It's just a thing to
memorize; it doesn't affect the grammar in any other way.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1c8h4q4na6qxugzEJKmaP+Bc051S761HevEJicR=pnKKw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq
DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam chu'
tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp
'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'. moHaqvaD
chuHwI' DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp.
ghu'vam vIqelmeH DIvI' Hol qechmey
/subject/ /object/ je,
jImISqu'choH. 'ach vuDlIj QIjmeH
/subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel.
rarchu'be' tlhIngan Hol,
qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.<br>
<br>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div>ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD
vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj. 'oSlaHbe'
wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>
<-wI'> je, 'eb lonlu'pu' 'ej
pagh chavlu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p>Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>'a chaq SaH tlhInganpu'. 'eb tu'DI',
lulo' 'e' bot nuq? lubotlaHbe'ba' tera'ngan
Holtej. 'a 'eb lulo' luneHbe' tlhIngan,
SIghlaHbe' je tera'ngan Holtej.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p>Arguing over whether a Klingon would or would not
care about a particular grammatical feature is not a
useful line of reasoning, in my view.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>No, but as any of us who've studied a natural language
have observed (and it wouldn't surprise me if this applies
to every subscriber on this list), native speakers are
under no obligation to speak the language the way the
student expects, no matter how good the student's
reasoning. Our reasoning is ultimately of a kind with that
of the toddler who says "goed" instead of "went." Some of
my favorite moments in studying Klingon are Maltz's
revelations that Klingons don't speak the language the way
we'd expect.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>There's much to be said for your conservative approach,
that it is less likely to generate Klingon expressions
that no Klingon would accept than an approach that accepts
any Klingon expression that canon doesn't expressly
forbid.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes, sometimes in our ignorance we say the grammatical equivalent
of <i>goed</i> instead of <i>went.</i> You're asking us to say <i>wented.</i><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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