[108983] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The Doctor Who discussion
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?)
Mon Feb 13 22:19:24 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?= <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 22:21:15 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Sustel:
*Doctor Who* mughta=E2=80=99ghachlIj vIlaD =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vItIv J
DaH Doctor Who =E2=80=99ay=E2=80=99 vImugh =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vInIDnIS je!
< Hegh Hoch =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 Sov Hoch. =E2=80=99ach Hoch jaj qaSbe=E2=80=
=99. jajvam qaSbe=E2=80=99. le=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99op jaj.
le=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99op jaj. =E2=80=99op jaj Hegh pagh nuv. rut,=
wa=E2=80=99logh qaStaHvIS poH nI=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99,
wa=E2=80=99 jaj qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99uy=E2=80=99 jajmey, DoqtaHvI=
S bIQtIq bIQ =E2=80=99ej rItlu=E2=80=99DI=E2=80=99 ghoS
Qel, taH Hoch. >
jIQaghpu'chugh jIHvaD yIja'.
qatlho' !
~mughwI'
2017-02-12 18:20 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
> jum. choQoylaHchugh jIratlhlaH 'e' vIQub. mIw vISovbe'. jIDogh. bIDogh,
> Qel qan. bIvemDI' SoS vav je Daghaj 'ej choqawbe'. toH, loQ choqaw. nachl=
Ij
> Dabbogh lut jIH. lu'. tagha' lut 'oH Hoch'e'. lut yIQaQmoH. nIvmo',
> nIvbejmo': 'IDnar 'aplo' nIHta' maw'bogh loD qan 'ej Haw'ta'. vInIHta' 'e=
'
> qaja'? toH, vIngIpta'; reH vIcheghmoH 'e' vIHech. 'o 'aplo'vetlh, *Amy,*
> 'aplo'vetlh Daghom bInajtaHvIS. not Dumej. quq ngoDmeyvam: tIn 'ej mach,
> chu'chu' 'ej qanqu'; 'ej SuDchu'ghachDaj SuD law' Hoch SuD puS. 'ej Doch
> DIta'bogh, qar'a'? Doch lujallu'bogh. Doch DIta'be'bogh. bInajtaHvIS ratl=
h
> Dochmeyvam. Qel *Amy Pond* je... qaSbe'bogh jajmey je.
>
> SoQchoH Qarghmey. 'ach SoQlaHbe'chu' latlh Dop vIghoSpa'. DaH naDev jInov=
.
> ratlhbogh qaSHa'ghach vIbuSQo'. qaSqa'ghach vImuS. yIyInchu'. *Rory*
> yImuSHa'. *Bye-bye, Pond.*
>
> On 2/12/2017 10:27 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:
>
> Thanks for your help and explanations Sustel !
>
> I think I get it now :)
>
> ~mughwI'
>
> PS: "TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of example ;) Whovian jIH !
>
>
> 2017-02-11 18:16 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
>
>> On 2/11/2017 8:34 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:
>>
>> Indeed the lack of tense can be a bit confusing sometimes and it's takin=
g
>> me a bit of time getting used to.
>>
>> I'm still working to figure out also how it works with the verb suffixes=
.
>>
>> For example, in the 4 possible sentences below, do I get the exact
>> nuances right?
>>
>> jIvutpu=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIparHa=E2=80=99
>> - I like that I cooked (at some point in the past)
>> - I like that I have cooked (just now)
>> - I like finishing to cook (maybe implying that this is when I can
>> finally eat ;)
>>
>>
>> "At some point in the past" implies past tense, which we know Klingon
>> doesn't have. Instead, the *-pu'* tells us that "I cook" is a completed
>> action. In English we can't separate tense and aspect, so the distinctio=
n
>> is difficult for English-speakers to grasp.
>>
>>
>> *jIvutpu' *
>> *I cooked; I have cooked; I will have cooked *I perform, performed, or
>> will perform an act of cooking, and I now, did, or will complete that ac=
t.
>>
>> The single word in no way tells you whether the action is past, present,
>> or future. It means all of them and none of them at the same time, the s=
ame
>> way that *blue* means sky-blue and navy-blue and TARDIS-blue all at the
>> same time.
>>
>>
>> *wa'Hu' jIvutpu' **yesterday I cooked; yesterday I had cooked*
>>
>>
>> *DaH jIvutpu' **right now I have cooked*
>>
>>
>> *wa'leS jIvutpu' **tomorrow I will have cooked*
>>
>> Contexts like these are required to determine *when* the cooking
>> happened.
>>
>> If you don't use an aspect suffix, you are explicitly talking about an
>> action that is not completed (or continuous) in the moment your are
>> describing.
>>
>>
>> *jIvut **I cook; **It's true that I cook things*
>>
>> This also does not specify *when* an action happened, which requires
>> context:
>>
>>
>> *wa'Hu' jIvut **I cooked yesterday; it's true that I engaged in cooking
>> yesterday*
>>
>>
>> *DaH jIvut **I cook now; at other times I may not have cooked, but it's
>> true that I cook now*
>>
>>
>> *wa'leS jIvut **I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow I'll do some cooking*
>>
>> You can make a similar comparison with the continuous suffixes.
>>
>> --
>> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing listtlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.orghttp://lists.kli.org/l=
istinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">Sus=
tel:=C2=A0</font></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times new roman",serif"><i>Docto=
r Who</i> mughta=E2=80=99ghachlIj vIlaD =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vItIv
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-f=
amily:wingdings">J</span><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"><br></span></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingding=
s"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-famil=
y:"times new roman",serif">DaH Doctor Who =E2=80=99ay=E2=80=99 vI=
mugh =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vInIDnIS je!</span><br></span></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings">=
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&=
quot;times new roman",serif"><br></span></span></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"=
;times new roman",serif"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">< Hegh Hoch =E2=
=80=99e=E2=80=99 Sov Hoch. =E2=80=99ach Hoch jaj
qaSbe=E2=80=99. jajvam qaSbe=E2=80=99. le=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99op jaj. le=E2=
=80=99qu=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99op jaj. =E2=80=99op jaj Hegh pagh nuv. rut,
wa=E2=80=99logh qaStaHvIS poH nI=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99, wa=E2=80=99 jaj qaSta=
HvIS wa=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99uy=E2=80=99 jajmey, DoqtaHvIS
bIQtIq bIQ =E2=80=99ej rItlu=E2=80=99DI=E2=80=99 ghoS Qel, taH Hoch. ></=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&=
quot;times new roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">=
=C2=A0jIQaghpu'chugh jIHvaD yIja'.<span></span></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:"times new ro=
man",serif"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">qatlho' !</spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;times new roman",serif"><br></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">~mug=
hwI'</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p></span></span></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-02-1=
2 18:20 GMT+01:00 SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476moz-cite-prefix">
<p>jum. choQoylaHchugh jIratlhlaH 'e' vIQub. mIw vISovbe'=
. jIDogh.
bIDogh, Qel qan. bIvemDI' SoS vav je Daghaj 'ej choqawbe=
9;. toH,
loQ choqaw. nachlIj Dabbogh lut jIH. lu'. tagha' lut 'o=
H
Hoch'e'. lut yIQaQmoH. nIvmo', nIvbejmo': 'IDna=
r 'aplo' nIHta'
maw'bogh loD qan 'ej Haw'ta'. vInIHta' 'e&#=
39; qaja'? toH,
vIngIpta'; reH vIcheghmoH 'e' vIHech. 'o 'aplo&=
#39;vetlh, <i>Amy,</i>
'aplo'vetlh Daghom bInajtaHvIS. not Dumej. quq ngoDmeyvam: =
tIn
'ej mach, chu'chu' 'ej qanqu'; 'ej SuDchu&#=
39;ghachDaj SuD law' Hoch
SuD puS. 'ej Doch DIta'bogh, qar'a'? Doch lujallu&#=
39;bogh. Doch
DIta'be'bogh. bInajtaHvIS ratlh Dochmeyvam. Qel <i>Amy Pond=
</i>
je... qaSbe'bogh jajmey je.</p>
<p>SoQchoH Qarghmey. 'ach SoQlaHbe'chu' latlh Dop vIghoSp=
a'. DaH
naDev jInov. ratlhbogh qaSHa'ghach vIbuSQo'. qaSqa'ghac=
h vImuS.
yIyInchu'. <i>Rory</i> yImuSHa'. <i>Bye-bye, Pond.</i><br>
</p><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<br>
On 2/12/2017 10:27 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail-h5">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks for yo=
ur
help and explanations Sustel !</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I think I get
it now :)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">~mughwI'<=
/div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">PS:
"TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of example ;) </spa=
n><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">Whovian jIH</font><font face=3D"ari=
al, helvetica, sans-serif"> !</font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-02-11 18:16 GMT+01:00 SuStel <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">s=
ustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><span>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476m_1027761195527772=
997moz-cite-prefix">On
2/11/2017 8:34 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Ind=
eed
the lack of tense can be a bit confusing sometimes
and it's taking me a bit of time getting used to.</=
div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br=
>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I&#=
39;m
still working to figure out also how it works with
the verb suffixes.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br=
>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For
example, in the 4 possible sentences below, do I get
the exact nuances right?</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br=
>
</div>
<div><font face=3D"times new
roman, serif">jIvutpu=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vI=
parHa=E2=80=99=C2=A0</font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">- I
like that I cooked (at some point in the past)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">- I
like that I have cooked (just now)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">- I
like finishing to cook (maybe implying that this is
when I can finally eat ;)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p>"At some point in the past" implies past tense, =
which
we know Klingon doesn't have. Instead, the <b>-pu'<=
/b>
tells us that "I cook" is a completed action. In =
English
we can't separate tense and aspect, so the distinction
is difficult for English-speakers to grasp.</p>
<p><b>jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>I cooked; I have cooked; I will have cooked<br>
</i>I perform, performed, or will perform an act of
cooking, and I now, did, or will complete that act.</p>
<p>The single word in no way tells you whether the action
is past, present, or future. It means all of them and
none of them at the same time, the same way that <i>blue</i=
>
means sky-blue and navy-blue and TARDIS-blue all at the
same time.<br>
</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>yesterday I cooked; yesterday I had cooked</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>right now I have cooked</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>tomorrow I will have cooked</i></p>
<p>Contexts like these are required to determine <i>when</i>
the cooking happened.</p>
<p>If you don't use an aspect suffix, you are explicitly
talking about an action that is not completed (or
continuous) in the moment your are describing.</p>
<p><b>jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook; </i><i>It's true that I cook things</i><=
/p>
<p>This also does not specify <i>when</i> an action
happened, which requires context:</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cooked yesterday; it's true that I engaged in
cooking yesterday</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook now; at other times I may not have cooked,
but it's true that I cook now</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvut<br>
</b><i>I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow I'll do some
cooking</i></p>
<p>You can make a similar comparison with the continuous
suffixes.<span class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476HOEnZb">=
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span></p>
<span class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888">
<pre class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476m_10277611955277=
72997moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476m_1027761195527772997moz-txt-link-fr=
eetext" href=3D"http://trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.nam=
e</a></pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>
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rg" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr=
>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476mimeAttachmentHeader"><=
/fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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rg</a>
<a class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http:=
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/lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
</div></div><span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><pre c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"gmail-m_8990357687230089476moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http:=
//trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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