[108980] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] KLBC - How to say "I like to do/doing something"
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?)
Sun Feb 12 10:27:18 2017
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In-Reply-To: <2417c495-5985-0847-110f-699f28743502@trimboli.name>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Aur=C3=A9lie_Demonchaux?= <demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:27:13 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Thanks for your help and explanations Sustel !
I think I get it now :)
~mughwI'
PS: "TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of example ;) Whovian jIH !
2017-02-11 18:16 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>:
> On 2/11/2017 8:34 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:
>
> Indeed the lack of tense can be a bit confusing sometimes and it's taking
> me a bit of time getting used to.
>
> I'm still working to figure out also how it works with the verb suffixes.
>
> For example, in the 4 possible sentences below, do I get the exact nuance=
s
> right?
>
> jIvutpu=E2=80=99 =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIparHa=E2=80=99
> - I like that I cooked (at some point in the past)
> - I like that I have cooked (just now)
> - I like finishing to cook (maybe implying that this is when I can finall=
y
> eat ;)
>
>
> "At some point in the past" implies past tense, which we know Klingon
> doesn't have. Instead, the *-pu'* tells us that "I cook" is a completed
> action. In English we can't separate tense and aspect, so the distinction
> is difficult for English-speakers to grasp.
>
>
> *jIvutpu' *
> *I cooked; I have cooked; I will have cooked *I perform, performed, or
> will perform an act of cooking, and I now, did, or will complete that act=
.
>
> The single word in no way tells you whether the action is past, present,
> or future. It means all of them and none of them at the same time, the sa=
me
> way that *blue* means sky-blue and navy-blue and TARDIS-blue all at the
> same time.
>
>
> *wa'Hu' jIvutpu' **yesterday I cooked; yesterday I had cooked*
>
>
> *DaH jIvutpu' **right now I have cooked*
>
>
> *wa'leS jIvutpu' **tomorrow I will have cooked*
>
> Contexts like these are required to determine *when* the cooking happened=
.
>
> If you don't use an aspect suffix, you are explicitly talking about an
> action that is not completed (or continuous) in the moment your are
> describing.
>
>
> *jIvut **I cook; **It's true that I cook things*
>
> This also does not specify *when* an action happened, which requires
> context:
>
>
> *wa'Hu' jIvut **I cooked yesterday; it's true that I engaged in cooking
> yesterday*
>
>
> *DaH jIvut **I cook now; at other times I may not have cooked, but it's
> true that I cook now*
>
>
> *wa'leS jIvut **I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow I'll do some cooking*
>
> You can make a similar comparison with the continuous suffixes.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
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>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif">Thanks for your help and explanations Sustel !</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica=
,sans-serif">I think I get it now :)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">~mughwI'</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif">PS: "TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of e=
xample ;) </span><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">Whovian jIH</font><f=
ont face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> !</font></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-02-11 18:16=
GMT+01:00 SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.n=
ame" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_1027761195527772997moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/2017 8:34 A=
M, Aur=C3=A9lie
Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">Indeed the lack
of tense can be a bit confusing sometimes and it's taking me a
bit of time getting used to.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">I'm still working
to figure out also how it works with the verb suffixes.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">For example, in
the 4 possible sentences below, do I get the exact nuances
right?</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"times new roman, serif">jI=
vutpu=E2=80=99
=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIparHa=E2=80=99=C2=A0</font></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">- I like that I
cooked (at some point in the past)</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">- I like that I
have cooked (just now)</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif">- I like
finishing to cook (maybe implying that this is when I can
finally eat ;)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p>"At some point in the past" implies past tense, whi=
ch we know
Klingon doesn't have. Instead, the <b>-pu'</b> tells us that =
"I
cook" is a completed action. In English we can't separate te=
nse
and aspect, so the distinction is difficult for English-speakers
to grasp.</p>
<p><b>jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>I cooked; I have cooked; I will have cooked<br>
</i>I perform, performed, or will perform an act of cooking, and I
now, did, or will complete that act.</p>
<p>The single word in no way tells you whether the action is past,
present, or future. It means all of them and none of them at the
same time, the same way that <i>blue</i> means sky-blue and
navy-blue and TARDIS-blue all at the same time.<br>
</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>yesterday I cooked; yesterday I had cooked</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>right now I have cooked</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>tomorrow I will have cooked</i></p>
<p>Contexts like these are required to determine <i>when</i> the
cooking happened.</p>
<p>If you don't use an aspect suffix, you are explicitly talking
about an action that is not completed (or continuous) in the
moment your are describing.</p>
<p><b>jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook; </i><i>It's true that I cook things</i></p>
<p>This also does not specify <i>when</i> an action happened, which
requires context:</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cooked yesterday; it's true that I engaged in cooking
yesterday</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook now; at other times I may not have cooked, but it's
true that I cook now</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvut<br>
</b><i>I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow I'll do some cooking</i></p=
>
<p>You can make a similar comparison with the continuous suffixes.<span=
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<pre class=3D"m_1027761195527772997moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_1027761195527772997moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</font></span></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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