[108894] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] <> vImughlI'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Mon Jan 16 02:03:34 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 07:03:24 +0000
In-Reply-To: <6792ebbf-9062-d56e-0f77-87332f0b3551@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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> wa'DIch would have been better. A bI'reS is the beginning of some artisti=
c performance, not a job.
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 14, =
Stanza 6) does give a precedent for using bI'reS as a timestamp.
bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor
"First, Molor taunted Kahless."
Marc Okrand also used it to refer to the beginning of a stretch of time in =
Message to Kronos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DujliyG96Cf8
ghorgh lumuch? poH tuj bI'reS nungbogh wa' jaj qeylIS DIS chorghvatlh loSma=
H jav qaStaHvIS.
"When [will it be shown], you ask? In the days that follow the summer solst=
ice in the Year of Kahless 846."
It's a very strange sentence, both grammatically and in its description of =
days following the summer solstice ("a day that precedes the beginning of t=
he warm season"), so it's worth taking with some grains of salt. However, i=
t does appear that {poH tuj bI'reS} means "the beginning of the warm season=
".
I do have some *highly* speculative head canon about this usage:
I suspect that perhaps, in 24th century tlhIngan Hol, bI'reS only means "be=
ginning (of a play/opera/story/speech/performance/work)". However, perhaps =
it *used* to mean "beginning" in a more generic sense, and can therefore be=
be heard in many ghe'naQmey nIt.
If so, one can see how it might still sometimes makes it way into modern tr=
anslations (like paq'batlh) of no' Hol operas, because readers/viewers/list=
eners are expected to be familiar with it or understand it from context.
And perhaps for similar reasons, it is sometimes used when speaking *about*=
operas; poetically, metaphorically or just pretentiously. Similar to the w=
ay you might speak of preludes and crescendos outside of musical contexts.
Again, that's highly speculative, but I personally would quite like to keep=
the word {bI'reS} fairly specific to a performance context, and this would=
be one possible way of reconciling that with these two canonical examples.
________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel=
<sustel@trimboli.name>
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 04:26
To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] <<poSayDon>> vImughlI'
On 1/15/2017 9:34 PM, Brian Cote wrote:
ej vaj ghaH QeHqu'moH qechna'vam 'ej bI'reS Qu'DajvaD
ghaH parqu'moH.
Disregarding your suggestions for recasting these sentences
for the moment.
{bI'reS} - I was intending to use it as a time stamp, as in
the {paq'batlh}, however, I'm thinking {wa'DIch} might have
been more appropriate here.
wa'DIch would have been better. A bI'reS is the beginning of some artistic =
performance, not a job.
{Qu'DajvaD ghaH parqu'moH} - I'll explain my thinking here.
I was intending to write /(this idea specifically) caused him to
really dislike his duty/. I based this on the example of
{paqvaD qanejmoH}, but as I'm currently writing this,
I'm realizing that this probably falls under the category of
the "prefix trick", correct? I was thinking that {ghaH} would be
the explicit direct object and {Qu'Daj} would be the explicit
indirect object. This obviously didn't work, correct?
Does paqvaD qanejmoH appear in paq'batlh? I have only about two-thirds of i=
t typed in and searchable, and what I have already done doesn't contain tha=
t phrase.
Our first example of how to do this was on a SkyBox card, where the phrase =
was ghaHvaD quHDaq qawmoH it causes him to remember his heritage. Following=
this pattern, your desired sentence would be ghaHvaD Qu'Daj parqu'moH it c=
auses him to really dislike his task.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>><span style=3D"background-color:white;"> <strong>wa'DIch</stron=
g> would have been better. A
<strong>bI'reS</strong> is the beginning of some artistic performance, not =
a job.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">While I don't necessarily disagr=
ee with you, paq'batlh (paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 6) does give a =
precedent for using bI'reS as a timestamp.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">bI'reS qeylIS vaq molor<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">"First, Molor taunted Kahle=
ss."<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">Marc Okrand also used it to =
;refer to the beginning of a stretch of time in Message to Kronos:<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.c=
om/watch?v=3DujliyG96Cf8">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DujliyG96Cf8</a>=
<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">ghorgh lumuch? poH tuj bI'reS nu=
ngbogh wa' jaj qeylIS DIS chorghvatlh loSmaH jav qaStaHvIS.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">"When [will it be shown], y=
ou ask? In the days that follow the summer solstice in the Year of Kahless =
846."<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">It's a very strange sentence, bo=
th grammatically and in its description of days following the summer solsti=
ce ("a day that precedes the beginning of the warm season"), so i=
t's worth taking with some grains of salt. However,
it does appear that {poH tuj bI'reS} means "the beginning of the warm=
season".</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">I do have some *highly* speculat=
ive head canon about this usage:<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">I suspect that perhaps, in 24th =
century tlhIngan Hol, bI'reS only means "beginning (of a play/opera/st=
ory/speech/performance/work)". However, perhaps it *used* to mean &quo=
t;beginning" in a more generic sense, and can therefore
be be heard in many ghe'naQmey nIt.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">If so, one can see how it might =
still sometimes makes it way into modern translations (like paq'batlh) of n=
o' Hol operas, because readers/viewers/listeners are expected to be familia=
r with it or understand it from context.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">And perhaps for similar reasons,=
it is sometimes used when speaking *about* operas; poetically, metaphorica=
lly or just pretentiously. Similar to the way you might speak of preludes a=
nd crescendos outside of musical contexts.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;">Again, that's highly speculative=
, but I personally would quite like to keep the word {bI'reS} fairly specif=
ic to a performance context, and this would be one possible way of reconcil=
ing that with these two canonical
examples.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"background-color:white;"></span><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tlh=
ingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli=
.name><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 16, 2017 04:26<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] <<poSayDon>> vImughlI'</font=
>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 1/15/2017 9:34 PM, Brian Cote wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ej vaj ghaH QeHqu'moH qechna'vam 'ej bI'reS Qu'DajvaD </div>
<div>ghaH parqu'moH.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Disregarding your suggestions for recasting these sentences </div=
>
<div>for the moment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>{bI'reS} - I was intending to use it as a time stamp, as in</div>
<div> the {paq'batlh}, however, I'm thinking {wa'DIch} might have =
;</div>
<div>been more appropriate here.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>wa'DIch</b> would have been better. A <b>bI'reS</b> is the beginning =
of some artistic performance, not a job.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>{Qu'DajvaD ghaH parqu'moH} - I'll explain my thinking here.</div>
<div> I was intending to write /(this idea specifically) caused him to=
</div>
<div>really dislike his duty/. I based this on the example of</div>
<div> {paqvaD qanejmoH}, but as I'm currently writing this,</div>
<div> I'm realizing that this probably falls under the category of&nbs=
p;</div>
<div>the "prefix trick", correct? I was thinking that {ghaH} woul=
d be</div>
<div> the explicit direct object and {Qu'Daj} would be the explicit</d=
iv>
<div> indirect object. This obviously didn't work, correct?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Does <b>paqvaD qanejmoH</b> appear in <i>paq'batlh</i>? I have only abou=
t two-thirds of it typed in and searchable, and what I have already done do=
esn't contain that phrase.</p>
<p>Our first example of how to do this was on a SkyBox card, where the phra=
se was
<b>ghaHvaD quHDaq qawmoH</b><i> it causes him to remember his heritage.</i>=
Following this pattern, your desired sentence would be
<b>ghaHvaD Qu'Daj parqu'moH</b><i> it causes him to really dislike his task=
.</i><br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">-- =0A=
SuStel=0A=
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trimboli.name">http://tri=
mboli.name</a></pre>
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