[108650] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The conspicuous absence of -ew', -Iw' and -Iy'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Terrence Donnelly)
Wed Dec 28 10:37:20 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2016 15:36:51 +0000 (UTC)
From: Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <1482937310544.45386@kth.se>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org,
Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============7874459097303373649==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_3064753_1111804056.1482939411366"
------=_Part_3064753_1111804056.1482939411366
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As an aside, I've always considered the pattern -rgh to actually represent =
the application of an "r" coloring to the preceding vowel (technically, rho=
tacization). That is, although written V-r-gh, with 3 characters, the actua=
l sound is (Vr)-gh, with Vr being r-colored V. It makes no functional diffe=
rence, but does preserve the usually strict CVC structure of Klingon.
ter'eS
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 9:01 AM
Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] The conspicuous absence of -ew', -Iw' and -Iy'
=20
<!--#yiv1139785635 P{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv1139785635 p {margi=
n-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}-->A while back, I made the observation that there=
are no attested Klingon words with a syllable ending in -ew', -Iw' or -Iy'=
.
This is rather peculiar, as words/syllables ending in -ew ({ghew}, {qew}, {=
Supghew}...), -Iw ('Iw, lIw, mIw...) and -Iy (lIy, wIy, nIyma'...) have all=
been used in canon.
That being said, these examples are quite rare. I did a (rather sloppy) sea=
rch for words containing syllables ending in -aw, -ew, -Iw, -ay, -ey, -Iy, =
-oy and -uy in canon, along with those same ones=C2=A0followed by=C2=A0' an=
d found the following. The results can be found at the end of this e-mail.
The list does show a certain deficit of words with syllables ending in -ew =
(7) or -Iw (7, 3 of which are compounds involving 'Iw) compared with -aw (1=
8), which may go some way towards explaining the lack of -ew' and -Iw'; per=
haps they're not forbidden, but incredibly rare.Interestingly, however, -aw=
' was more common than -aw, so it's slightly surprising that -ew' and -Iw' =
are completely absent.
Has there been any discussion of this? Does anybody have any idea what the =
reason might be? Has anybody perhaps even asked Okrand?
I find it rather curious, because with Klingon's rather rigid syllable stru=
cture, I'd kind of expect a very high percentage of the possible syllables =
to be in use for something, and assuming that useful words are spread out f=
airly evenly,=C2=A0it's a bit surprising that we haven't seen any.I have no=
ticed that=C2=A0the vowels 'at and 'ot appear to be the most=C2=A0frequentl=
y occuring in the language, followed=C2=A0by 'et and 'ut, and then 'It in l=
ast place. Could it be that some sort of unwritten rule makes frequently us=
ed words more likely to contain these popular vowels, and thus less likely =
to contain these absent syllable endings? Might there be a wealth of highly=
esoteric terminology using -ew' and -Iw' and -Iy' out there that only Klin=
gon dweebs use?
It's worth noting that TKD only contained one word ending in -Irgh, namely =
{chIrgh}, and it wasn't until KGT that we got our second one, {SIrgh}. The =
third one arrived ... four weeks ago, namely the word {'Irgh}, meaning "bul=
ly" (verb):=C2=A0http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PopCultureHeroCoalitionSo, i=
t does seem quite possible that these words are still out there, and we jus=
t haven't seen them yet.
=3D=3D Counting syllables =3D=3D
-aw: 18 words + 1 Terran location name-ew: 7 words + {qewwI'}* + 1 Terran l=
ocation name
-Iw: 7 words** + 1 Terran location name-ow: 0 (see TKD p.17)
-uw: 0 (see TKD p.17)
-aw': 23 + 1 verb suffix-ew': 0-Iw': 0-ow': 0 (forbidden?)-uw': 0 (forbidde=
n?)
-ay: 22 words*** + qaywI'** + 20 letter names + 1 Terran location name-ey: =
17 words + 2 noun suffixes + 4 Klingon names + 1 Terran location name-Iy: 7=
words +=C2=A01 Klingon location name +=C2=A05 Terran location names (inclu=
ding=C2=A0rIymuS)-oy: 7 words=C2=A0+ 1 noun suffix -uy:=C2=A011 words
-ay':=C2=A0 31 words=E2=80=A0 + Qay'wI'** + 1 Klingon(?) location name (tay=
'ghoqor) + 2 Terran location names-ey':=C2=A010 words-Iy': 0-oy':=C2=A016 w=
ords=E2=80=A0=E2=80=A0 + 1 non-Klingon(?) location name (Doy'yuS)-uy': 10 w=
ords=20
Here I have treated spaceless or irregular compound words (such as {qawHaq}=
pr {paw'aD}) as their own words, but not words that can be formed regularl=
y using suffixes (such as {qawmoH}).When two words are related homonyms (i.=
e. the noun {chaw'} and the verb {chaw'}), both are counted.I did not count=
words such as {DoyIchlan}, which I read as Do-yIch-lan, rather than Doy-Ic=
h-lan, so as not to have any syllables starting with vowels. Words like {qu=
y'Ip}, where the apostrophe is immediately followed a vowel, were counted t=
o the non-apostrophe tally (-uy in this case), for the same reason.Transcri=
ptions of Terran non-location names (such as {jemS tIy qIrq}, {Day joH} and=
{'entepray'}) have been ignored because I'm lazy.
*I wasn't sure if I should treat {qewwI'}, {qaywI'} and {Qay'wI'} as their =
own words, as they are regularly derived terms (qew + -wI'), but with fairl=
y specific meanings which are not *quite* obvious from this analysis.
**Of these 7 words, 3 clearly involve the root {'Iw}: {'Iw}, {'Iwghargh} an=
d {ro'qegh'Iwchab}. I felt this was worth noting.
***Of these 21 words, 6 clearly involve the root {tay} ("rite, ceremony, ri=
tual"): {tay}, {chontay}, {Heghtay}, {muvtay}, {nentay},=C2=A0{ruStay}. If =
we don't count these or letter names, then -ey is more common than -ay (and=
, in terms of usage frequency, it almost certainly is anyway, thanks to -me=
y and to some degree -Hey).
=E2=80=A0Of these 31 words, 5 are battle-related and include the syllable {=
may'}: {may'}, {DIvI'may'Duj},=C2=A0{may'Duj}, {may'luch} and {may'morgh}=
=E2=80=A0=E2=80=A0Of these 16 words, 4 are pain-related and include the syl=
lable {'oy'}: {'oy} (noun),=C2=A0{'oy'} (verb) and {'oy'naQ}.
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
=20
------=_Part_3064753_1111804056.1482939411366
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, =
sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13782=
">As an aside, I've always considered the pattern -rgh to actually represen=
t the application of an "r" coloring to the preceding vowel (technically, r=
hotacization). That is, although written V-r-gh, with 3 characters, the act=
ual sound is (Vr)-gh, with Vr being r-colored V. It makes no functional dif=
ference, but does preserve the usually strict CVC structure of Klingon.</di=
v><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13783"><br></div><div id=3D"yu=
i_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13784">ter'eS<br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
ym19_1_1482938520118_13604"><span></span></div><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13544"><br><br></div><div class=3D"y=
ahoo_quoted" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13548" style=3D"display:=
block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvet=
ica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_y=
m19_1_1482938520118_13547"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13546"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13545"> <font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148293852011=
8_13549" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <hr id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14829385201=
18_13678" size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>=
Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">To:</span></b> "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> <=
br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, Decem=
ber 28, 2016 9:01 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</sp=
an></b> [tlhIngan Hol] The conspicuous absence of -ew', -Iw' and -Iy'<br> <=
/font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148293=
8520118_13745"><br><div id=3D"yiv1139785635">
=20
<style type=3D"text/css"><!--#yiv1139785635 P{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;=
}#yiv1139785635 p
=09{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}--></style>
<div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13806">
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13805">A while back, I made the =
observation that there are no attested Klingon words with a syllable ending=
in -ew', -Iw' or -Iy'.</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13807"><br>
</div>
<div>This is rather peculiar, as words/syllables ending in -ew ({ghew}, {qe=
w}, {Supghew}...), -Iw ('Iw, lIw, mIw...) and -Iy (lIy, wIy, nIyma'...) hav=
e all been used in canon.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13808">That being said, these ex=
amples are quite rare. I did a (rather sloppy) search for words containing =
syllables ending in -aw, -ew, -Iw, -ay, -ey, -Iy, -oy and -uy in canon, alo=
ng with those same ones followed by ' and found the following. Th=
e results can
be found at the end of this e-mail.</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13809"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13810">The list does show a cert=
ain deficit of words with syllables ending in -ew (7) or -Iw (7, 3 of which=
are compounds involving 'Iw) compared with -aw (18), which may go some way=
towards explaining the lack of -ew' and -Iw'; perhaps they're not forbidde=
n, but
incredibly rare.</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13811">Interestingly, however, -=
aw' was more common than -aw, so it's slightly surprising that -ew' and -Iw=
' are completely absent.</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13812"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13813">Has there been any discus=
sion of this? Does anybody have any idea what the reason might be? Has anyb=
ody perhaps even asked Okrand?<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1482938520118_13814"><br>
I find it rather curious, because with Klingon's rather rigid syllable stru=
cture, I'd kind of expect a very high percentage of the possible syllables =
to be in use for something, and assuming that useful words are spread out f=
airly evenly, it's a bit surprising
that we haven't seen any.</div>
<div>I have noticed that the vowels 'at and 'ot appear to be the most&=
nbsp;frequently occuring in the language, followed by 'et and 'ut, and=
then 'It in last place. Could it be that some sort of unwritten rule makes=
frequently used words more likely to contain these
popular vowels, and thus less likely to contain these absent syllable endi=
ngs? Might there be a wealth of highly esoteric terminology using -ew' and =
-Iw' and -Iy' out there that only Klingon dweebs use?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's worth noting that TKD only contained one word ending in -Irgh, na=
mely {chIrgh}, and it wasn't until KGT that we got our second one, {SIrgh}.=
The third one arrived ... four weeks ago, namely the word {'Irgh}, meaning=
"bully" (verb): </div>
<div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.n=
et/En/PopCultureHeroCoalition">http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PopCultureHero=
Coalition</a>
</div>
<div>So, it does seem quite possible that these words are still out there, =
and we just haven't seen them yet.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=3D=3D Counting syllables =3D=3D<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-aw: 18 words + 1 Terran location name</div>
<div>-ew: 7 words + {qewwI'}* + 1 Terran location name<br>
</div>
<div>-Iw: 7 words** + 1 Terran location name</div>
<div>-ow: 0 (see TKD p.17)<br>
</div>
<div>-uw: 0 (see TKD p.17)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-aw': 23 + 1 verb suffix</div>
<div>-ew': 0</div>
<div>-Iw': 0</div>
<div>-ow': 0 (forbidden?)</div>
<div>-uw': 0 (forbidden?)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-ay: 22 words*** + qaywI'** + 20 letter names + 1 Terran location name=
</div>
<div>-ey: 17 words + 2 noun suffixes + 4 Klingon names + 1 Terran location =
name</div>
<div>-Iy: 7 words + 1 Klingon location name + 5 Terran location n=
ames (including rIymuS)</div>
<div>-oy: 7 words + 1 noun suffix </div>
<div>-uy: 11 words</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-ay': 31 words=E2=80=A0 + Qay'wI'** + 1 Klingon(?) location name=
(tay'ghoqor) + 2 Terran location names</div>
<div>-ey': 10 words</div>
<div>-Iy': 0</div>
<div>-oy': 16 words=E2=80=A0=E2=80=A0 + 1 non-Klingon(?) location name=
(Doy'yuS)</div>
<div>-uy': 10 words <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here I have treated spaceless or irregular compound words (such as {qa=
wHaq} pr {paw'aD}) as their own words, but not words that can be formed reg=
ularly using suffixes (such as {qawmoH}).</div>
<div>When two words are related homonyms (i.e. the noun {chaw'} and the ver=
b {chaw'}), both are counted.</div>
<div>I did not count words such as {DoyIchlan}, which I read as Do-yIch-lan=
, rather than Doy-Ich-lan, so as not to have any syllables starting with vo=
wels. Words like {quy'Ip}, where the apostrophe is immediately followed a v=
owel, were counted to the non-apostrophe
tally (-uy in this case), for the same reason.</div>
<div>Transcriptions of Terran non-location names (such as {jemS tIy qIrq}, =
{Day joH} and {'entepray'}) have been ignored because I'm lazy.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>*I wasn't sure if I should treat {qewwI'}, {qaywI'} and {Qay'wI'} as t=
heir own words, as they are regularly derived terms (qew + -wI'), but with =
fairly specific meanings which are not *quite* obvious from this analysis.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>**Of these 7 words, 3 clearly involve the root {'Iw}: {'Iw}, {'Iwgharg=
h} and {ro'qegh'Iwchab}. I felt this was worth noting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>***Of these 21 words, 6 clearly involve the root {tay} ("rite, ceremon=
y, ritual"): {tay}, {chontay}, {Heghtay}, {muvtay}, {nentay}, {ruStay}=
. If we don't count these or letter names, then -ey is more common than -ay=
(and, in terms of usage frequency, it
almost certainly is anyway, thanks to -mey and to some degree -Hey).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>=E2=80=A0Of these 31 words, 5 are battle-related and include the sylla=
ble {may'}: {may'}, {DIvI'may'Duj}, {may'Duj}, {may'luch} and {may'mor=
gh}
</div>
<div>=E2=80=A0=E2=80=A0Of these 16 words, 4 are pain-related and include th=
e syllable {'oy'}: {'oy} (noun), {'oy'} (verb) and {'oy'naQ}.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div><br>_______________________________________________<br>tlhIngan-Hol m=
ailing list<br><a ymailto=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" href=3D"mai=
lto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br><a href=
=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br><br><br></=
div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>
------=_Part_3064753_1111804056.1482939411366--
--===============7874459097303373649==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============7874459097303373649==--
