[108336] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Sat Dec 10 10:14:38 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLKm46RMhtZR2Hvc_0Qk-buiiypOPjiZfVX_JiL5iXU4Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 17:14:34 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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can I find somewhere the text of 'oqranD =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lect=
ure ? I mean
only the text; not the video.
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 5:12 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the english
> syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ?
>
> qunnoH jan puqloD
> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>
> On 10 Dec 2016 3:48 pm, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>
>> =E2=80=9CIt's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon sy=
llable
>> structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on
>> observation=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lecture, Okrand explained th=
e rules of a
>> Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final *rgh.*
>>
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=9CIn the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, =
lulIgh,
>> bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable
>> ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so
>> that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" an=
d
>> verengan sounds like "vrengan".
>>
>>
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t do this. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever heard O=
krand do this. Klingon
>> doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come fro=
m?
>>
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=9CThis confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is t=
his the
>> only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress
>> pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable
>> becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending u=
p
>> sounding like "jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D
>>
>>
>>
>> *-oy* is not a syllable; it=E2=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usually add=
ed to a word
>> ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a *=E2=80=98* is added firs=
t if the
>> word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I
>> don=E2=80=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=99 pronunciations, I will=
point out that
>> Azetbur pronounces *vavoy* as *va-VOY.*
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://trimboli.name
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
>> *Sent: *Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM
>> *To: *tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> *Subject: *Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
>>
>>
>>
>> It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable
>> structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on
>> observation.
>>
>>
>>
>> The majority of all cases can be described as such:
>>
>>
>>
>> Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.
>>
>> This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the thre=
e
>> permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.
>>
>> No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.
>>
>>
>>
>> So single syllable options are:
>>
>>
>>
>> CV - tI Do ta ...
>>
>> CVC - batlh chuch por ...
>>
>> CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...
>>
>> CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any
>> -ew' or -Iw' words)
>>
>> CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)
>>
>>
>>
>> After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may als=
o
>> follow any of these forms.
>>
>>
>>
>> For example:
>>
>>
>>
>> CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan
>>
>> CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'
>>
>> CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho
>>
>> CV-CV-CVC - verengan
>>
>> CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH
>>
>>
>>
>> In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh,
>> bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable
>> ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so
>> that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" an=
d
>> verengan sounds like "vrengan".
>>
>>
>>
>> This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the
>> only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress
>> pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable
>> becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending u=
p
>> sounding like "jpoy"?)
>>
>>
>>
>> There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in
>> non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh,
>> tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).
>>
>>
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> loghaD (CV-CVC)
>>
>> 10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
>>
>> lieven:
>> > '-I-n =3D C-V-C
>> > S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
>> > Why the confusion?
>>
>> according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follow=
s
>> ? this produces (cvccvc).
>>
>> the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like
>> (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right afte=
r a
>> consonant always a vowel follows.
>>
>> qunnoH jan puqloD
>> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>> Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
>>
>> we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you
>> explain {'InSong} ?
>>
>>
>> '-I-n =3D C-V-C
>> S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
>>
>> Why the confusion?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lieven L. Litaer
>> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
>> Grammarian of the KLI
>> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
>> http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>>
>>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">can I find somewhere the text of 'oqranD =E2=80=9CKlingo=
n 101=E2=80=9D lecture ? I mean only the text; not the video.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10 Dec 2016 5:=
12 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">=
mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">is there a difference between the klingon syll=
able, and the english syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllab=
le ?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10 Dec 2016 3:=
48 pm, <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">suste=
l@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=
=3D"m_-6596480767012195632m_-3249160678695856714WordSection1"><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CIt's worth stating that I=
don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been d=
irectly stated, but rather this is based on observation=E2=80=9D<u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lecture, Okrand explained the=
rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final <b>=
rgh.</b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CIn the event where=
the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), t=
here may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other e=
nds. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two =
syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and =
verengan sounds like "vrengan".<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t do th=
is. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon d=
oesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come fro=
m?</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CThis confusion might also arise when u=
sing the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? O=
r does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appended to in suc=
h a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy=
, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><b>-oy</b> is not a syllable; it=E2=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usual=
ly added to a word ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a <b>=E2=80=
=98</b> is added first if the word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix compl=
etes the syllable. Though I don=E2=80=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=
=99 pronunciations, I will point out that Azetbur pronounces <b>vavoy</b> a=
s <b>va-VOY.<u></u><u></u></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <br>SuStel<br><a href=3D"http://trimboli.na=
me" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.=
0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;=
padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank=
">Felix Malmenbeck</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM<=
br><b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlh=
ingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you expl=
ain {'InSong} ?</p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It's worth stating that I don't believe the=
rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but ra=
ther this is based on observation.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The majority=
of all cases can be described as such:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">E=
very syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This may be (and usually is) followed b=
y a consonant, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters:=
-rgh, -w' or -y'.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">So single syllable options are:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">CV - tI Do ta ...<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
CVC - batlh chuch por ...<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">CVw' - maw' =C2=A0law' ghaw' ... (interestingly=
, there don't appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words)<u></u><u></u=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVy' - lay' loy' bey'=
; ... (no known -Iy' examples)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">After =
one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also follow =
any of these forms.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example:<u></u><u=
></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho<u></=
u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CV-CV-CVC - verengan<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the event where the forst syllable is simpl=
y CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpr=
etation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllab=
le gets "swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like =
one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "v=
rengan".<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">This confusion might also a=
rise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can begin on=
a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appende=
d to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupo=
y be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are still exceptions to these "rules"=
, such as those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and i=
n no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div id=3D"m_-=
6596480767012195632m_-3249160678695856714AppleMailSignature"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">loghaD (CV-CVC)<br><br><u></u><u></=
u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">10 dec. 2=
016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com"=
target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p></div><block=
quote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p>lieven:<br>>=
; '-I-n =3D C-V-C<br>> S-o-ng =3D C-V-C<br>> Why the confusion?</=
p><p>according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} foll=
ows ? this produces (cvccvc).</p><p>the rule refers to clusters of three (c=
vc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that accor=
ding to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel follows.</p><p>qu=
nnoH jan puqloD<br>ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 10 D=
ec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de"=
target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><blockqu=
ote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0i=
n 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Am 10.12=
.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:<u></u><u></u></p><blockquote style=
=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;m=
argin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">we are always say=
ing that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you<br>explain {'In=
Song} ?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>'-I-n =
=3D C-V-C<br>S-o-ng =3D C-V-C<br><br>Why the confusion?<br><br><br>-- <br>L=
ieven L. Litaer<br>aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>Grammarian of the KLI<br><a=
href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
ww.facebook.com/Klingo<wbr>nteacher</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.klingonwik=
i.net/En/Phonology" target=3D"_blank">http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/<wbr>Ph=
onology</a><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>tlhI=
ngan-Hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.kli=
.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.=
org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><u></u><u></u></p></blockquot=
e></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-rig=
ht:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in">_____________________________=
_<wbr>_________________<br>tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:t=
lhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a>=
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et=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</=
a><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></=
div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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