[108335] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Sat Dec 10 10:12:31 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <20161210134843.77CDA9850EE@zapata.dreamhost.com>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 17:12:27 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the english
syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 3:48 pm, <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> =E2=80=9CIt's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syl=
lable
> structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on
> observation=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lecture, Okrand explained the=
rules of a
> Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final *rgh.*
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9CIn the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, l=
ulIgh,
> bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable
> ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so
> that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and
> verengan sounds like "vrengan".
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t do this. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever heard Ok=
rand do this. Klingon
> doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from=
?
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9CThis confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is th=
is the
> only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress
> pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable
> becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up
> sounding like "jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> *-oy* is not a syllable; it=E2=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usually adde=
d to a word
> ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a *=E2=80=98* is added first=
if the
> word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I
> don=E2=80=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=99 pronunciations, I will =
point out that
> Azetbur pronounces *vavoy* as *va-VOY.*
>
>
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
>
>
>
> *From: *Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
> *Sent: *Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM
> *To: *tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> *Subject: *Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
>
>
>
> It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable
> structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on
> observation.
>
>
>
> The majority of all cases can be described as such:
>
>
>
> Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.
>
> This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three
> permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.
>
> No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.
>
>
>
> So single syllable options are:
>
>
>
> CV - tI Do ta ...
>
> CVC - batlh chuch por ...
>
> CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...
>
> CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any
> -ew' or -Iw' words)
>
> CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)
>
>
>
> After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also
> follow any of these forms.
>
>
>
> For example:
>
>
>
> CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan
>
> CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'
>
> CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho
>
> CV-CV-CVC - verengan
>
> CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH
>
>
>
> In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh,
> bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable
> ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so
> that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and
> verengan sounds like "vrengan".
>
>
>
> This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the
> only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress
> pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable
> becomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up
> sounding like "jpoy"?)
>
>
>
> There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in
> non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh,
> tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> loghaD (CV-CVC)
>
> 10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
>
> lieven:
> > '-I-n =3D C-V-C
> > S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
> > Why the confusion?
>
> according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows
> ? this produces (cvccvc).
>
> the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like
> (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after=
a
> consonant always a vowel follows.
>
> qunnoH jan puqloD
> ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
>
>
>
> On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
>
> we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you
> explain {'InSong} ?
>
>
> '-I-n =3D C-V-C
> S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
>
> Why the confusion?
>
>
> --
> Lieven L. Litaer
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> Grammarian of the KLI
> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
> http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">is there a difference between the klingon syllable, and the =
english syllable ? what is the definition of a klingon syllable ?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10 Dec 2016 3:=
48 pm, <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a=
>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_-3249160678695=
856714WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=
=80=9CIt's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon =
syllable structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based=
on observation=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=
=80=9D lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I =
think he forgot to include final <b>rgh.</b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:.5in">=E2=80=9CIn the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera&=
#39;ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation whe=
re one syllable ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets &qu=
ot;swallowed", so that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera&#=
39; sounds like "vra" and verengan sounds like "vrengan"=
;.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t do this. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve =
ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English=
does. Where does this idea come from?</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">=E2=80=9CTh=
is confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only s=
yllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of =
the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy?=
(for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like =
"jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>-oy</b> is not a syllable; it=E2=
=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usually added to a word ending in a consonan=
t, and TKD suggests that a <b>=E2=80=98</b> is added first if the word ends=
in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I don=E2=80=
=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=99 pronunciations, I will point out t=
hat Azetbur pronounces <b>vavoy</b> as <b>va-VOY.<u></u><u></u></b></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <br>Su=
Stel<br><a href=3D"http://trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.=
name</a></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"bo=
rder:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href=3D"m=
ailto:felixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank">Felix Malmenbeck</a><br><b>Sent: </b=
>Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:tlhing=
an-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject: <=
/b>Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?</p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It's wort=
h stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure =
have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observation.<u>=
</u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The majority of all cases can be described as suc=
h:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Every syllable begins with a consonant=
, followed by a vowel.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">T=
his may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three pe=
rmissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.<u></u><u><=
/u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">No syllable ends on -ow, -ow',=
-uw or -uw'.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">So single syllable opti=
ons are:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CV - tI Do ta ...<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVC - batlh chuch por ...<u></u><u></u=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVw' - maw' =C2=A0=
law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be any -ew=
' or -Iw' words)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)<u><=
/u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">After one of these, you are freee tonstart a=
new syllable, which may also follow any of these forms.<u></u><u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal">For example:<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">CVC-CVC - &#=
39;InSong, bobcho', lalDan<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">CV-CV-CVC - verengan<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the ev=
ent where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh=
, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and th=
e other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that=
the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra&q=
uot; and verengan sounds like "vrengan".<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is thi=
s the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress=
pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable b=
ecomes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up so=
unding like "jpoy"?)<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are still =
exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klinogn na=
mes (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'=
det q'uti 'qoolit).<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best wishes,<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div id=3D"m_-3249160678695856714AppleMailSignature"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">loghaD (CV-CVC)<br><=
br><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=
.0pt">10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <<a href=3D"mailto:mih=
koun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p=
>lieven:<br>> '-I-n =3D C-V-C<br>> S-o-ng =3D C-V-C<br>> Why t=
he confusion?</p><p>according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {=
n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc).</p><p>the rule refers to clust=
ers of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..) ? so far I tho=
ught that according to this rule, right after a consonant always a vowel fo=
llows.</p><p>qunnoH jan puqloD<br>ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'<=
/p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <<a href=3D"mailto:l=
evinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;pad=
ding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:<u></u><u></u></p><blo=
ckquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0i=
n 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">we a=
re always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you<br>exp=
lain {'InSong} ?<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
br>'-I-n =3D C-V-C<br>S-o-ng =3D C-V-C<br><br>Why the confusion?<br><br=
><br>-- <br>Lieven L. Litaer<br>aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>Grammarian of =
the KLI<br><a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://www.facebook.com/<wbr>Klingonteacher</a><br><a href=3D"http://w=
ww.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology" target=3D"_blank">http://www.klingonwiki.n=
et/En/<wbr>Phonology</a><br>______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.=
kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"htt=
p://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" target=3D"_blank">http=
://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><u></u><u></u></=
p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in">_______________=
_______________<wbr>_________________<br>tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Hol@lis=
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-hol-kli.org</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></p></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<=
br>
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