[102799] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Scope of Klingon Negation
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Dec 3 11:12:55 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:12:37 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAG84SOuKRC2WPiReir_bSm8yJKSbSGXct87jRJz3fWbdFs4Ovg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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These are good rewordings. Just to add more suggestions for valid ways =
to express the thought:
chaq chotIch, =E2=80=98ach jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.
or
chotIchchugh jISaHbe=E2=80=99. jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.
or simpler yet:
jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.
In the end, the statement is a negative response to the implied =
suggestion that you insulted me and that caused me to be angry. The =
implied suggestion may be that there is a causal link between you =
insulting me and me being angry, but my response is at its simplest: =
=E2=80=9CI am not angry.=E2=80=9D=20
That=E2=80=99s the nut. There is no cause for me being angry because, =
well, I=E2=80=99m not angry. So, using a causal dependent clause =
attached to the negative statement about being angry is not really =
expressing your meaning. Cause has nothing to do with your statement.
If I like, I can optionally point out that you have, in fact, insulted =
me, or I can make that less certain, that perhaps you have insulted me, =
or I can even make a stronger statement that I don=E2=80=99t care =
whether you have insulted me or not. But none of these need to be in the =
same sentence as =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m not angry,=E2=80=9D unless you are =
using {=E2=80=98ach} to connect two independent clauses. The only real =
difference between =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D is =
that =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D connects two sentences, while =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=
=9D suggests, =E2=80=9CHey, the first sentence sets up an expectation =
that the second sentence refutes,=E2=80=9D while it connects the two =
sentences.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Dec 3, 2015, at 10:54 AM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:43 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de =
<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
> So what you're asking for is (chotIchmo' jIQeH)be'.
>=20
>=20
> A while ago, I thought of a way to phrase that sort of thing:
>=20
> {chotIchmo' jIQeH net tu'be'} One does not observe that I am angry =
because you insulted me.
>=20
> It feels a little clumsy to me (it reminds me of the "It is not the =
case..." phrasing you see in formal logic textbooks) but I think it =
might work when you need to negate a whole sentence with subordinate =
clauses but for some reason can't phrase the sentence some other way. =
Something like {chotIch 'ach jIQeHbe'} is probably the better option in =
most cases, though.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">These are good rewordings. Just to add more =
suggestions for valid ways to express the thought:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">chaq chotIch, =E2=80=98ach=
jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">or</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">chotIchchugh jISaHbe=E2=80=99. jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">or simpler =
yet:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">jIQeHbe=E2=80=99.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the end, the statement is a negative =
response to the implied suggestion that you insulted me and that caused =
me to be angry. The implied suggestion may be that there is a causal =
link between you insulting me and me being angry, but my response is at =
its simplest: =E2=80=9CI am not angry.=E2=80=9D </div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s the nut. =
There is no cause for me being angry because, well, I=E2=80=99m not =
angry. So, using a causal dependent clause attached to the negative =
statement about being angry is not really expressing your meaning. Cause =
has nothing to do with your statement.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I like, I can optionally point out =
that you have, in fact, insulted me, or I can make that less certain, =
that perhaps you have insulted me, or I can even make a stronger =
statement that I don=E2=80=99t care whether you have insulted me or not. =
But none of these need to be in the same sentence as =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99m =
not angry,=E2=80=9D unless you are using {=E2=80=98ach} to connect two =
independent clauses. The only real difference between =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D=
and =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D is that =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D connects two =
sentences, while =E2=80=9Cbut=E2=80=9D suggests, =E2=80=9CHey, the first =
sentence sets up an expectation that the second sentence refutes,=E2=80=9D=
while it connects the two sentences.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">=
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 3, 2015, at 10:54 AM, nIqolay Q <<a =
href=3D"mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com" class=3D"">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 3:43 AM, =
Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de"=
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
So what you're asking for is (chotIchmo' jIQeH)be'.<span class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</font></span><br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">A while ago, I thought of a way to phrase that sort of =
thing:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>{chotIchmo' jIQeH net tu'be'} =
<i class=3D"">One does not observe that I am angry because you insulted =
me.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></i></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It =
feels a little clumsy to me (it reminds me of the "It is not the =
case..." phrasing you see in formal logic textbooks) but I think it =
might work when you need to negate a whole sentence with subordinate =
clauses but for some reason can't phrase the sentence some other way. =
Something like {chotIch 'ach jIQeHbe'} is probably the better option in =
most cases, though.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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