[102730] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: Due to the refusal, the topic is forgotten
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Tue Dec 1 22:29:45 2015
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 22:29:25 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAOJo7ir8U2MxVjzJhFr+tD=h_ccS3s6xv0m-WjiHvCYysKtSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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This is generally good advice, but don=E2=80=99t confuse the topic =
suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} for the pronoun {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. The =
former is attached to a noun. The latter is a word unto itself. Your =
advice sounds like the word unto itself could be a pronoun or a =
topicalizer.
As for precisely what {-Qo=E2=80=99} is negating, there have been =
arguments over what {-be=E2=80=99} is negating in some cases (the =
immediate thing it follows, or the entire construction it follows), so =
there is no precise, consistent rule here. There=E2=80=99s an action of =
the verb, modified by its suffixes, and there=E2=80=99s a refusal. You =
figure it out.
{-meH} clauses must precede the noun or main clause they modify. Other =
Type 9 suffixes, like {-mo=E2=80=99} really are acceptable either =
preceding or following. I prefer preceding, but it=E2=80=99s a personal =
preference, not a grammatical rule. I have my reasons, but they carry no =
real weight. Okrand has explicitly stated that following is okay.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 5:47 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi! Thanks for using the KLBC tag!
>=20
> I think you have indeed hit on an ambiguity. As far as I understand =
it, the {-Qo'} will negate the verb root unless it is otherwise made =
obvious from context. Maybe a more advanced speaker can clarify this.
>=20
> As for suffix placement, the rule is described in section 4.3 of the =
dictionary: "Unlike {-be',} the position of {-Qo'} does not change: it =
occurs last, unless followed by a Type 9 suffix." Note: This is one of =
those "Rovers" that doesn't rove -- Thanks, Marc. wejpuH.
>=20
> For this rule to be useful you'll need to remember the Type 9 =
suffixes, the "syntactic markers" -- -DI', -chugh, -pa', -vIS, -mo', =
-jaj, -ghach. (See section 4.2.9, and don't forget to check the same =
section in the addendum.)
>=20
> Concerning -mo' and 'e', your sentences are correct except that I'm =
not sure what you are trying to do with the 'e' in your first sentence. =
'e' is used to emphasize the topic of statements, in the "to be" =
statement ({ X 'oH/ghaH Y'e'} =3D X is Y}) and as a pronoun referring to =
a previous sentence. Check out TKD sections 3.3.5 and 6.3 for =
clarification. Also, I think it is generally considered good form but =
not mandatory that the -mo' statement proceed the rest of the sentence.
>=20
> I think you are saying "Teacher! Do not forget!" However you should =
use -Qo' to make imperatives negative -- {yIlIjQo'}. I don't think you =
can use -lu' with an imperative.
>=20
> I hope this helps! jatlhwI'pu', what do you think?
>=20
> 'arHa
>=20
> =E2=80=94=20
>=20
>=20
> ------------------------------
>=20
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:41:06 -0500
> From: fata irae <fatairae@gmail.com <mailto:fatairae@gmail.com>>
> To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: Due to the refusal, the topic is
> forgotten
> Message-ID:
> =
<CA+_YdeuQwLmCX-S3CnPkhVpJN6mFGDqnGvn4jd60Fg5gh0i5bQ@mail.gmail.com =
<mailto:CA%2B_YdeuQwLmCX-S3CnPkhVpJN6mFGDqnGvn4jd60Fg5gh0i5bQ@mail.gmail.c=
om>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>=20
> ghojmoHwI''e' yIlIjbe'lu'!
>=20
> So, a couple ideas here, just throwing them out to see if I've got the
> right idea.
>=20
> ----
> Playing with -Qo', and trying to figure out how to use it in a more =
complex
> construction. Got simple ones like jItujQo', but when other suffixes =
enter
> the equation, I become unsure.
>=20
> bIbIrlaHQo'
> You won't (refuse) be able to be cold
> You are able to refuse to be cold
>=20
> The second makes more sense, but since the -Qo' must be at the end, it
> gives the impression of being applied to the entire concept. Or is it =
just
> one of those ambiguities?
>=20
> ----
> Playing with -mo', and incidentally playing with 'e', and wanted to =
make
> sure these made sense:
>=20
> SuHeghlI' 'e' choleghpu'mo'
> They are dying, because you saw me
>=20
> qulmo' matujchoH
> Due to the fire, we are becoming hot
>=20
> ----
> Incidentally, did the initial statement make sense?
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This is generally good advice, but don=E2=80=99=
t confuse the topic suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} for the pronoun =
{=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. The former is attached to a noun. The latter is a =
word unto itself. Your advice sounds like the word unto itself could be =
a pronoun or a topicalizer.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">As for precisely what {-Qo=E2=80=99} is negating, there have =
been arguments over what {-be=E2=80=99} is negating in some cases (the =
immediate thing it follows, or the entire construction it follows), so =
there is no precise, consistent rule here. There=E2=80=99s an action of =
the verb, modified by its suffixes, and there=E2=80=99s a refusal. You =
figure it out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">{-meH} clauses must precede the noun or main clause they =
modify. Other Type 9 suffixes, like {-mo=E2=80=99} really are acceptable =
either preceding or following. I prefer preceding, but it=E2=80=99s a =
personal preference, not a grammatical rule. I have my reasons, but they =
carry no real weight. Okrand has explicitly stated that following is =
okay.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =
=E2=80=98utlh</div><div class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired =
Honorably</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 1, 2015, at 5:47 PM, John R. Harness <<a =
href=3D"mailto:cartweel@gmail.com" class=3D"">cartweel@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi! Thanks for using the KLBC tag!<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think you have indeed =
hit on an ambiguity. As far as I understand it, the {-Qo'} will negate =
the verb root unless it is otherwise made obvious from context. Maybe a =
more advanced speaker can clarify this.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As for suffix placement, the rule is =
described in section 4.3 of the dictionary: "Unlike {-be',} the position =
of {-Qo'} does not change: it occurs
last, unless followed by a Type 9 suffix." Note: This is one of those =
"Rovers" that doesn't rove -- Thanks, Marc. wejpuH.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For this rule to be =
useful you'll need to remember the Type 9 suffixes, the "syntactic =
markers" -- -DI', -chugh, -pa', -vIS, -mo', -jaj, -ghach. (See section =
4.2.9, and don't forget to check the same section in the =
addendum.)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Concerning -mo' and 'e', your sentences are correct except =
that I'm not sure what you are trying to do with the 'e' in your first =
sentence. 'e' is used to emphasize the topic of statements, in the "to =
be" statement ({ X 'oH/ghaH Y'e'} =3D X is Y}) and as a pronoun =
referring to a previous sentence. Check out TKD sections 3.3.5 and 6.3 =
for clarification. Also, I think it is generally considered good form =
but not mandatory that the -mo' statement proceed the rest of the =
sentence.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think you are saying "Teacher! Do not forget!" However you should use =
-Qo' to make imperatives negative -- {yIlIjQo'}. I don't think you can =
use -lu' with an imperative.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I hope this helps! jatlhwI'pu', what do =
you think?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">'arHa<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><table style=3D"margin-left:0px" =
border=3D"0" class=3D"">
<tbody class=3D"">
<tr class=3D"">
<td class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(128,128,128)=
;font-size:smaller" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 </span></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
------------------------------<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Message: 2<br class=3D"">
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:41:06 -0500<br class=3D"">
From: fata irae <<a href=3D"mailto:fatairae@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">fatairae@gmail.com</a>><br class=3D"">
To: tlhIngan-Hol <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br class=3D"">
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: Due to the refusal, the topic is<br =
class=3D"">
forgotten<br class=3D"">
Message-ID:<br class=3D"">
<<a =
href=3D"mailto:CA%2B_YdeuQwLmCX-S3CnPkhVpJN6mFGDqnGvn4jd60Fg5gh0i5bQ@mail.=
gmail.com" =
class=3D"">CA+_YdeuQwLmCX-S3CnPkhVpJN6mFGDqnGvn4jd60Fg5gh0i5bQ@mail.gmail.=
com</a>><br class=3D"">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
ghojmoHwI''e' yIlIjbe'lu'!<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So, a couple ideas here, just throwing them out to see if I've got =
the<br class=3D"">
right idea.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
----<br class=3D"">
Playing with -Qo', and trying to figure out how to use it in a more =
complex<br class=3D"">
construction. Got simple ones like jItujQo', but when other =
suffixes enter<br class=3D"">
the equation, I become unsure.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
bIbIrlaHQo'<br class=3D"">
You won't (refuse) be able to be cold<br class=3D"">
You are able to refuse to be cold<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The second makes more sense, but since the -Qo' must be at the end, =
it<br class=3D"">
gives the impression of being applied to the entire concept. Or is =
it just<br class=3D"">
one of those ambiguities?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
----<br class=3D"">
Playing with -mo', and incidentally playing with 'e', and wanted to =
make<br class=3D"">
sure these made sense:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
SuHeghlI' 'e' choleghpu'mo'<br class=3D"">
They are dying, because you saw me<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
qulmo' matujchoH<br class=3D"">
Due to the fire, we are becoming hot<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
----<br class=3D"">
Incidentally, did the initial statement make =
sense?</blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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