[102728] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: Due to the refusal, the topic is forgotten
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Tue Dec 1 21:51:47 2015
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:51:29 +1000
In-Reply-To: <CAOJo7ir8U2MxVjzJhFr+tD=h_ccS3s6xv0m-WjiHvCYysKtSoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============6514943484640929302==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="_bbca8334-c847-4927-a5d9-4c3470445553_"
--_bbca8334-c847-4927-a5d9-4c3470445553_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
ghItlhpu' Fatairae=2C jatlh:
> ghojmoHwI''e' yIlIjbe'lu'!
jang 'arHa=2C jatlh:
> Concerning -mo' and 'e'=2C your sentences are correct except that I'm
> not sure what you are trying to do with the 'e' in your first sentence.
I think I see what's going on - using the topic as kind of a vocative state=
ment - "hey=2C Teacher" (leave them kids alone?? :P ).
If that's the case=2C Fatairae=2C there's a neat little thing we have in pa=
q'batlh: the word {'o}. It seems to be pretty formal=2C but it's a particle=
that comes in front of a name to give it what's called a vocative (calling=
upon=2C or invoking) sense=2C like "o" in English (as in "o Lord=2C have m=
ercy"=2C or "greetings=2C o Tim". So absent any other punctuation=2C you ha=
ve:
qeylIS yIlIjQo'
"do not forget Kahless"
but
'o qeylIS yIlIjQo'
"do not forget=2C (o) Kahless!"
You don't have to use {'o}=2C and to be honest=2C this is one of those area=
s where you'd just use punctuation to disambiguate. Don't forget that in a =
romanised text you can feel free to make use of roman punctuation as well.
jatlhtaH 'arHa:
> I think you are saying "Teacher! Do not forget!" However you should
> use -Qo' to make imperatives negative -- {yIlIjQo'}. I don't think you
> can use -lu' with an imperative.
> I hope this helps! jatlhwI'pu'=2C what do you think?
On {-Qo'}=2C you're absolutely right. There's no reason why {-be'} couldn't=
appear *in addition* to {-Qo'} if added to the right suffix - {yISuvrupbe'=
Qo'} "do not be unready to fight" should work - but I don't think that it'd=
surface very often in practice.
As for imperatives plus {-lu'}? I'm honestly not 100% sure. Prima facie I w=
ould have said no=2C but given the agreement structure for {Daqawlu'} "some=
one remembers you" from TKD=2C I don't think I can think of a grammatical r=
eason to stay away from {yIqawlu'} "be remembered (by someone)!"=2C which f=
ormally has the same agreement structure.
However=2C there is a *cultural*=2C or sociolinguistic=2C reason why I don'=
t think this would happen. This comes from KGT. In imperatives of adjectiva=
l verbs like {HoS} "be strong"=2C {val} "be clever"=2C and so forth=2C it's=
unidiomatic to say simply {yIHoS} "be strong!" or {yIval} "be clever!". (T=
his is a rule often ignored or forgotten even by the very best and most exp=
erienced Klingonists. It's my personal bugbear=2C what can I say.) Instead=
=2C we're told in KGT (p.117) that Klingons normally add {-'eghmoH} "cause =
oneself to" to such verbs to give them an overt agent subject: {yIHoS'eghmo=
H} "be strong!" (literally=2C "cause yourself to be strong!").
What this shows is that although {yIHoS} and {yIval} aren't strictly ungram=
matical=2C Klingon speakers prefer to express imperatives by treating the o=
rdered person as an agent: as capable of acting to do something about a sit=
uation. But the problem with {-lu'} is that its whole purpose is to remove =
an overt agent subject from a verb: {vIta'} "I do it"=2C {ta'lu'} "it is do=
ne (by someone)". That means that in a sentence like {yIqawlu'} "be remembe=
red (by someone)!"=2C you're trying to do a bit of both: to give an agentiv=
e order to the addressee referred to by the imperative prefix=2C but deleti=
ng the agent subject with the suffix {-lu'}.
Short answer: I think {yIqawlu'} is in principle grammatically sensible=2C =
but in practice would never be said by a native speaker. The Klingon equiva=
lent of "colourless green ideas sleep furiously"=2C perhaps.
QeS 'utlh
=
--_bbca8334-c847-4927-a5d9-4c3470445553_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 12pt=3B
font-family:Calibri
}
--></style></head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>ghItlhpu' Fatairae=2C jatlh:<br>=
>=3B ghojmoHwI''e' yIlIjbe'lu'!<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>jang 'arHa=2C ja=
tlh:<br>>=3B Concerning -mo' and 'e'=2C your sentences are correct except=
that I'm<br>>=3B not sure what you are trying to do with the 'e' in your=
first sentence.<br><br>I think I see what's going on - using the topic as =
kind of a vocative statement - "hey=2C Teacher" (leave them kids alone?? :P=
).<br><br>If that's the case=2C Fatairae=2C there's a neat little thing we=
have in paq'batlh: the word {'o}. It seems to be pretty formal=2C but it's=
a particle that comes in front of a name to give it what's called a vocati=
ve (calling upon=2C or invoking) sense=2C like "o" in English (as in "o Lor=
d=2C have mercy"=2C or "greetings=2C o Tim". So absent any other punctuatio=
n=2C you have:<br><br>qeylIS yIlIjQo'<br>"do not forget Kahless"<br><br>but=
<br><br>'o qeylIS yIlIjQo'<br>"do not forget=2C (o) Kahless!"<br><br>You do=
n't have to use {'o}=2C and to be honest=2C this is one of those areas wher=
e you'd just use punctuation to disambiguate. Don't forget that in a romani=
sed text you can feel free to make use of roman punctuation as well.<br><br=
>jatlhtaH 'arHa:<br>>=3B I think you are saying "Teacher! Do not forget!"=
However you should<br>>=3B use -Qo' to make imperatives negative -- {yIl=
IjQo'}. I don't think you<br>>=3B can use -lu' with an imperative.<br>>=
=3B I hope this helps! jatlhwI'pu'=2C what do you think?<br><br>On {-Qo'}=
=2C you're absolutely right. There's no reason why {-be'} couldn't appear *=
in addition* to {-Qo'} if added to the right suffix - {yISuvrupbe'Qo'} "do =
not be unready to fight" should work - but I don't think that it'd surface =
very often in practice.<br><br>As for imperatives plus {-lu'}? I'm honestly=
not 100% sure. Prima facie I would have said no=2C but given the agreement=
structure for {Daqawlu'} "someone remembers you" from TKD=2C I don't think=
I can think of a grammatical reason to stay away from {yIqawlu'} "be remem=
bered (by someone)!"=2C which formally has the same agreement structure.<br=
><br>However=2C there is a *cultural*=2C or sociolinguistic=2C reason why I=
don't think this would happen. This comes from KGT. In imperatives of adje=
ctival verbs like {HoS} "be strong"=2C {val} "be clever"=2C and so forth=2C=
it's unidiomatic to say simply {yIHoS} "be strong!" or {yIval} "be clever!=
". (This is a rule often ignored or forgotten even by the very best and mos=
t experienced Klingonists. It's my personal bugbear=2C what can I say.) Ins=
tead=2C we're told in KGT (p.117) that Klingons normally add {-'eghmoH} "ca=
use oneself to" to such verbs to give them an overt agent subject: {yIHoS'e=
ghmoH} "be strong!" (literally=2C "cause yourself to be strong!").<br><br>W=
hat this shows is that although {yIHoS} and {yIval} aren't strictly ungramm=
atical=2C Klingon speakers prefer to express imperatives by treating the or=
dered person as an agent: as capable of acting to do something about a situ=
ation. But the problem with {-lu'} is that its whole purpose is to remove a=
n overt agent subject from a verb: {vIta'} "I do it"=2C {ta'lu'} "it is don=
e (by someone)". That means that in a sentence like {yIqawlu'} "be remember=
ed (by someone)!"=2C you're trying to do a bit of both: to give an agentive=
order to the addressee referred to by the imperative prefix=2C but deletin=
g the agent subject with the suffix {-lu'}.<br><br>Short answer: I think {y=
Iqawlu'} is in principle grammatically sensible=2C but in practice would ne=
ver be said by a native speaker. The Klingon equivalent of "colourless gree=
n ideas sleep furiously"=2C perhaps.<br><br>QeS 'utlh<br></div></div> =
</div></body>
</html>=
--_bbca8334-c847-4927-a5d9-4c3470445553_--
--===============6514943484640929302==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============6514943484640929302==--
