[102359] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Roney, Jr.)
Tue Nov 17 12:01:35 2015
In-Reply-To: <F1F69049-057C-4749-9A89-875AB20D3B1B@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:01:17 -0500
From: "Michael Roney, Jr." <nahqun@gmail.com>
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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No, you're absolutely right.
I wrote it without {-'e'} at first, but it sounded wrong to my ear.
After looking up {'oH} in my dictionary, it seems that almost all of the
examples I have use {-'e'} on a noun after {'oH}, meaning that my ear is
used to hearing {'oH} and {-'e'} together.
On the positive side, I'm starting to write more without relying on my
dictionary for every word.
It's slightly embarrassing to make blunders such as this in public, but at
least I'm learning from them.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Sorry.
>
> Having seen this one go by a couple of times without comment, I have to
> just touch on one thing:
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:
> > cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?
>
> jang je naHQun, jatlh:
> > wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.
>
> {chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS jIH.
>
>
> I see no justification for putting {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH=
} here. If there were a
> subject of {=E2=80=98oH}, as in {DujwIj =E2=80=98oH Dujvetlh=E2=80=99e=E2=
=80=99}, then the subject noun
> would get {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, not the {=E2=80=98oH}. Most of the time=
a noun with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is
> placed among the words before the main clause, declaring the topic of the
> sentence, as in {HoD=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 QaQchu=E2=80=99 Qanqor.} =E2=80=
=9CConsidering captains, Krankor is
> perfectly good,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CKrankor is perfectly good as a capta=
in." We have canon
> for these uses.
>
> On this mailing list, it=E2=80=99s also been used in relative clauses to =
make
> clear which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative claus=
e
> and the main clause, as in {QIpqu=E2=80=99 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=E2=80=99e=
=E2=80=99.} =E2=80=9CThe person who
> insults Krankor is very stupid.=E2=80=9D Without the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=
=99}, you could mistakenly
> think that meant =E2=80=9CKrankor, who is insulted by the person, is stup=
id,=E2=80=9D which
> would be an unwise statement to make in the company of Krankor=E2=80=99s =
friends.
>
> Meanwhile, I=E2=80=99m not sure if we=E2=80=99ve ever seen a canon exampl=
e of Okrand using
> {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} in this way. I=E2=80=99d sorely miss it if it were=
ever declared a bad use
> of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, but I don=E2=80=99t think Okrand himself has e=
ver made a position clear
> on this.
>
> Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlhegh =E2=
=80=98oH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} There=E2=80=99s no
> reason to put the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} there, and since it is a noun su=
ffix used on a
> pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to break the grammar of
> the sentence as a whole. We know that we can put verb suffixes on pronoun=
s
> when they are functioning as the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=9D, as in {naD=
ev jIHtaH.} =E2=80=9CI am
> here.=E2=80=9D
>
> I=E2=80=99m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes a n=
oun
> suffix=E2=80=A6 even when it=E2=80=99s not being used as a verb=E2=80=A6 =
This is one of those
> things I=E2=80=99ve never thought about before. It=E2=80=99s somewhat ref=
reshing. I don=E2=80=99t
> run into grammatical points in Klingon that I=E2=80=99ve never thought ab=
out before
> very often.
>
> Maybe I=E2=80=99m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=
=E2=80=99t come up
> with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of several
> verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be used =
in
> Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are limited, and all t=
he
> ones I can come up with are verb suffixes.
>
> Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you understood that
> you, and you alone were the problem, I might say {bIqay=E2=80=99 SoH=E2=
=80=99e=E2=80=99 neH jay=E2=80=99!}
> but in that case, I=E2=80=99m obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.
>
> Mischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I
> could jokingly say, {=E2=80=98oHtaH SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99!} =E2=80=9CIt=
=E2=80=99s YOU.=E2=80=9D But there=E2=80=99s so much
> grammatically and idiomatically wrong with that. It would only be a joke.
>
> Sorry to go on so long. Drop the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH}.=
It really jumped out at
> me as wrong.
>
> QeS 'utlh
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--=20
~Michael Roney, Jr.
Freelance Translator
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<div dir=3D"ltr">No, you're absolutely right.<div><br></div><div>I wrot=
e it without {-'e'} at first, but it sounded wrong to my ear.</div>=
<div>After looking up {'oH} in my dictionary, it seems that almost all =
of the examples I have use {-'e'} on a noun after {'oH}, meanin=
g that my ear is used to hearing {'oH} and {-'e'} together.</di=
v><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On the positive side, I'm starting=
to write more without relying on my dictionary for every word.</div><div>I=
t's slightly embarrassing to make blunders such as this in public, but =
at least I'm learning from them.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 17=
, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:loj=
mitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word">Sorry.<div><br></div><div>Having seen this one go by a couple of =
times without comment, I have to just touch on one thing:</div><div><br><di=
v>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan=
Fenwick <<a href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">qesla=
gh@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>...<span class=3D""><br><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:<br>&=
gt; cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?<br><br></div><div>=
<div>jang je naHQun, jatlh:<br>> wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'=
;. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.<br><br>{chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a=
'? jImIS jIH.</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>I see no justification for putting {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}=
on {=E2=80=98oH} here. If there were a subject of {=E2=80=98oH}, as in {Du=
jwIj =E2=80=98oH Dujvetlh=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99}, then the subject noun would =
get {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, not the {=E2=80=98oH}. Most of the time a noun =
with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is placed among the words before the main claus=
e, declaring the topic of the sentence, as in {HoD=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 QaQch=
u=E2=80=99 Qanqor.} =E2=80=9CConsidering captains, Krankor is perfectly goo=
d,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CKrankor is perfectly good as a captain." We ha=
ve canon for these uses.</div><div><br></div><div>On this mailing list, it=
=E2=80=99s also been used in relative clauses to make clear which noun is t=
he noun that participates in both the relative clause and the main clause, =
as in {QIpqu=E2=80=99 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} =E2=80=9CThe=
person who insults Krankor is very stupid.=E2=80=9D Without the {-=E2=80=
=98e=E2=80=99}, you could mistakenly think that meant =E2=80=9CKrankor, who=
is insulted by the person, is stupid,=E2=80=9D which would be an unwise st=
atement to make in the company of Krankor=E2=80=99s friends.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Meanwhile, I=E2=80=99m not sure if we=E2=80=99ve ever seen a can=
on example of Okrand using {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} in this way. I=E2=80=99d =
sorely miss it if it were ever declared a bad use of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}=
, but I don=E2=80=99t think Okrand himself has ever made a position clear o=
n this.</div><div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=
=E2=80=99 mu=E2=80=99tlhegh =E2=80=98oH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99.} There=E2=80=99=
s no reason to put the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} there, and since it is a noun=
suffix used on a pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to brea=
k the grammar of the sentence as a whole. We know that we can put verb suff=
ixes on pronouns when they are functioning as the verb =E2=80=9Cto be=E2=80=
=9D, as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =E2=80=9CI am here.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div=
><div>I=E2=80=99m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes=
a noun suffix=E2=80=A6 even when it=E2=80=99s not being used as a verb=E2=
=80=A6 This is one of those things I=E2=80=99ve never thought about before.=
It=E2=80=99s somewhat refreshing. I don=E2=80=99t run into grammatical poi=
nts in Klingon that I=E2=80=99ve never thought about before very often.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Maybe I=E2=80=99m just having some kind of stuck ment=
al function. I can=E2=80=99t come up with a reason to put a noun suffix on =
a pronoun. I can think of several verb suffixes that work, but no noun suff=
ixes. Yes, pronouns can be used in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropria=
te affixes are limited, and all the ones I can come up with are verb suffix=
es.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure =
that you understood that you, and you alone were the problem, I might say {=
bIqay=E2=80=99 SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 neH jay=E2=80=99!} but in that case, =
I=E2=80=99m obviously not using {SoH} as a verb.</div><div><br></div><div>M=
ischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I could=
jokingly say, {=E2=80=98oHtaH SoH=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99!} =E2=80=9CIt=E2=80=
=99s YOU.=E2=80=9D But there=E2=80=99s so much grammatically and idiomatica=
lly wrong with that. It would only be a joke.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorr=
y to go on so long. Drop the {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on {=E2=80=98oH}. It re=
ally jumped out at me as wrong.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal=
;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>QeS 'utlh</div></div></=
div></div><span class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"=
>_______________________________________________</span><br style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;float:none;display:inline!important">Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br=
style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px"><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;l=
etter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Tl=
hingan-hol@kli.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-=
style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;l=
ine-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/tlhingan-hol" style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:16px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-he=
ight:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><br>=
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>~Michael Roney, Jr.<br>Freelan=
ce Translator</div></div></div>
</div>
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