[102358] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qun qa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Nov 17 11:46:06 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:45:23 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W60DC575D872703EB262E66AA1D0@phx.gbl>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Sorry.
Having seen this one go by a couple of times without comment, I have to =
just touch on one thing:
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
> ...
> jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:
> > cha' mu'tlheghmey tu'lu''a'?
>=20
> jang je naHQun, jatlh:
> > wa' mu'tlhegh 'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.
>=20
> {chevmey}? {chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS jIH.
I see no justification for putting {-=91e=92} on {=91oH} here. If there =
were a subject of {=91oH}, as in {DujwIj =91oH Dujvetlh=92e=92}, then =
the subject noun would get {-=91e=92}, not the {=91oH}. Most of the time =
a noun with {-=91e=92} is placed among the words before the main clause, =
declaring the topic of the sentence, as in {HoD=92e=92 QaQchu=92 =
Qanqor.} =93Considering captains, Krankor is perfectly good,=94 or =
=93Krankor is perfectly good as a captain." We have canon for these =
uses.
On this mailing list, it=92s also been used in relative clauses to make =
clear which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative =
clause and the main clause, as in {QIpqu=92 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=92e=92.} =
=93The person who insults Krankor is very stupid.=94 Without the {-=91e=92=
}, you could mistakenly think that meant =93Krankor, who is insulted by =
the person, is stupid,=94 which would be an unwise statement to make in =
the company of Krankor=92s friends.
Meanwhile, I=92m not sure if we=92ve ever seen a canon example of Okrand =
using {-=91e=92} in this way. I=92d sorely miss it if it were ever =
declared a bad use of {-=91e=92}, but I don=92t think Okrand himself has =
ever made a position clear on this.
Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=92 mu=92tlhegh =91oH=92e=92.} =
There=92s no reason to put the {-=91e=92} there, and since it is a noun =
suffix used on a pronoun that is functioning as a verb, it appears to =
break the grammar of the sentence as a whole. We know that we can put =
verb suffixes on pronouns when they are functioning as the verb =93to =
be=94, as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =93I am here.=94
I=92m trying to think of any condition in which a pronoun takes a noun =
suffix=85 even when it=92s not being used as a verb=85 This is one of =
those things I=92ve never thought about before. It=92s somewhat =
refreshing. I don=92t run into grammatical points in Klingon that I=92ve =
never thought about before very often.
Maybe I=92m just having some kind of stuck mental function. I can=92t =
come up with a reason to put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of =
several verb suffixes that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can =
be used in Klingon as verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are =
limited, and all the ones I can come up with are verb suffixes.
Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that you understood that =
you, and you alone were the problem, I might say {bIqay=92 SoH=92e=92 =
neH jay=92!} but in that case, I=92m obviously not using {SoH} as a =
verb.
Mischievously, I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I =
could jokingly say, {=91oHtaH SoH=92e=92!} =93It=92s YOU.=94 But there=92s=
so much grammatically and idiomatically wrong with that. It would only =
be a joke.
Sorry to go on so long. Drop the {-=91e=92} on {=91oH}. It really jumped =
out at me as wrong.
> QeS 'utlh
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Sorry.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Having seen this one go by a couple of times without comment, =
I have to just touch on one thing:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Rohan Fenwick <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" class=3D"">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div>...<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">jangpu' De'vID, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> cha' mu'tlheghmey =
tu'lu''a'?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">jang je naHQun, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> wa' mu'tlhegh =
'oH'e'. chevmey Da {tIQHa'}.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">{chevmey}? =
{chuvmey} DaHechpu''a'? jImIS =
jIH.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I see no justification for putting {-=91e=92} on =
{=91oH} here. If there were a subject of {=91oH}, as in {DujwIj =91oH =
Dujvetlh=92e=92}, then the subject noun would get {-=91e=92}, not the =
{=91oH}. Most of the time a noun with {-=91e=92} is placed among the =
words before the main clause, declaring the topic of the sentence, as in =
{HoD=92e=92 QaQchu=92 Qanqor.} =93Considering captains, Krankor is =
perfectly good,=94 or =93Krankor is perfectly good as a captain." We =
have canon for these uses.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>On this =
mailing list, it=92s also been used in relative clauses to make clear =
which noun is the noun that participates in both the relative clause and =
the main clause, as in {QIpqu=92 Qanqor tIchbogh nuv=92e=92.} =93The =
person who insults Krankor is very stupid.=94 Without the {-=91e=92}, =
you could mistakenly think that meant =93Krankor, who is insulted by the =
person, is stupid,=94 which would be an unwise statement to make in the =
company of Krankor=92s friends.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Meanwhile, I=92m not sure if we=92ve ever seen a =
canon example of Okrand using {-=91e=92} in this way. I=92d sorely miss =
it if it were ever declared a bad use of {-=91e=92}, but I don=92t think =
Okrand himself has ever made a position clear on this.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Meanwhile, I see no justification for {wa=92 =
mu=92tlhegh =91oH=92e=92.} There=92s no reason to put the {-=91e=92} =
there, and since it is a noun suffix used on a pronoun that is =
functioning as a verb, it appears to break the grammar of the sentence =
as a whole. We know that we can put verb suffixes on pronouns when they =
are functioning as the verb =93to be=94, as in {naDev jIHtaH.} =93I am =
here.=94</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=92m trying to think of =
any condition in which a pronoun takes a noun suffix=85 even when it=92s =
not being used as a verb=85 This is one of those things I=92ve never =
thought about before. It=92s somewhat refreshing. I don=92t run into =
grammatical points in Klingon that I=92ve never thought about before =
very often.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Maybe I=92m just having =
some kind of stuck mental function. I can=92t come up with a reason to =
put a noun suffix on a pronoun. I can think of several verb suffixes =
that work, but no noun suffixes. Yes, pronouns can be used in Klingon as =
verbs or nouns, but appropriate affixes are limited, and all the ones I =
can come up with are verb suffixes.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Maybe if I were screaming at you, making sure that =
you understood that you, and you alone were the problem, I might say =
{bIqay=92 SoH=92e=92 neH jay=92!} but in that case, I=92m obviously not =
using {SoH} as a verb.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Mischievously, =
I guess if I wanted to compliment you on your helmet, I could jokingly =
say, {=91oHtaH SoH=92e=92!} =93It=92s YOU.=94 But there=92s so much =
grammatically and idiomatically wrong with that. It would only be a =
joke.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Sorry to go on so long. Drop =
the {-=91e=92} on {=91oH}. It really jumped out at me as wrong.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: =
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auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">QeS =
'utlh</div></div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; =
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