[102281] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Thu Nov 12 20:47:25 2015
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:47:06 -0500
To: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <1447366550942.77983@kth.se>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============6294095297983788923==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4776CAF3-9350-49D5-9B34-4FEC2DEC741A"
--Apple-Mail=_4776CAF3-9350-49D5-9B34-4FEC2DEC741A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1252
wejpuH.
Learn the rules and the rules change.
So, since {tlhIngan Hol} actually means {tlhIngan wo=92 Hol} that =
suggests that {tlhIngan wo=92} means =93a Klingon=92s empire, and what =
we are really saying is, =93a Klingon=92s empire=92s language=94.
No wonder they shortened it.
Hmm.
But since it also can be called {ta=92 Hol}, that suggests that it=92s =
also =93the emperor=92s language=94. So, even though there may be a lot =
of tlhInganpu=92 who speak the language, only the emperor gets the =
language named after his rank. Others may speak other Klingon languages =
or dialects, but though they are Klingons, they can=92t call what they =
speak {tlhIngan Hol} unless it=92s the emperor=92s dialect. And I guess =
that other Klingon planets that speak ta=92 Hol don=92t get a language =
named after their planet, like everybody else...
But Vulcans apparently don=92t have a leader who dictates the current =
dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAVE any dialects, and it=92s apparently =
appropriate to name the language after the planet instead of the people =
who live there, or any individuals who live there. And Ferengi and Earth =
and all the other planets and the Federation=85
Hmm.
So, tera=92nganpu=92 speak Federation Standard, and though the Vulcans =
are part of the Federation, they speak the language named after their =
planet=85 when they aren=92t speaking DIvI=92 Hol, of course=85 And all =
the other planets of the Federation and the countries in them seem to =
speak their own language, plus Federation Standard=85
wejpuH.
Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe=92ba=92. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu=92. There are =
no universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the =
examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule =
has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be =
a very good rule.
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
>=20
> > Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because the =
planet
> > doesn=92t speak the language. It=92s inhabitants do.
>=20
> My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that =
Marc Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should =
more appropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the =
Klingon Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).
>=20
> http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt =
<http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt>
>=20
> In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer =
to a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than =
"country+ngan + Hol".
>=20
> From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50
> To: tlhInganHol discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
> =20
> For what it=92s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not =
{vulqangan loD}, since you=92d be talking about a man of the planet =
Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned =
by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The relationship between =
the man and the planet is genitive. The relationship between the man and =
a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so much.
>=20
> Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} =
literally means =93a Klingon=92s language=94, or =93the language of a =
Klingon=94. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is =
commonly translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t =
tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because the planet doesn=92t speak the =
language. It=92s inhabitants do.
>=20
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence =
<elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com <mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them =
"Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the construction =
<<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor. =20
>>=20
>> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense =
as a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals =
inferior/insulting in this way. However, I would not use a plural at =
all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, I would =
say it as a complete sentence.
>>=20
>> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
>> You are a Ferengi dog!
>>=20
>> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
>> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
>>=20
>> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that =
it is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
>>=20
>> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
>>=20
>> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
>>=20
>> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
>>=20
>> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
>>=20
>>=20
>> I hope this helps,
>> be''etlh
>>=20
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel@gmail.com =
<mailto:cartweel@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi! I=92m =91arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=92s Grammarian! Thanks =
for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=92ll take a =
shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the =
community for consideration.
>>=20
>> I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your =
questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species =
names) plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. =
You can add the <-pu=92> if you think it is necessary, but you can =
always leave it off and let context do the work for you if that is what =
you want.
>>=20
>> Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=92DIbaH>, we are really =
talking about a <Ha=92DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply =
tells us information about the animal; <Ha=92DIbaH> is the main noun in =
the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural suffix because the =
<Ha=92DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one might use <-pu> for =
artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha=92DIbaH, but that is =
not the norm!
>>=20
>> As for what I think is your most central question, I=92ll describe =
how I=92d approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer =
idea than me.
>>=20
>> As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized =
<verengan Ha=92DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying =
it to make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would =
say <verengan Ha=92DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. =
<verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you =
may be emphasizing that the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. =
<verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaH> suggests an animal belonging to several =
Ferengi.
>>=20
>> It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=92DIbaH> is, technically =
speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in =
section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.
>>=20
>> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
>>=20
>> [And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other =
speakers, especially on the last point!]
>>=20
>> 'arHa
>> Beginner's Grammarian
>>=20
>> =20
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
>> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>>
>> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org =
<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>>
>> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
>> Message-ID:
>> =
<CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3Dx4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com =
<mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>>=20
>> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
>>=20
>> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
>>=20
>>=20
>> in english one can say :
>>=20
>> the german people (plural)
>> a german man/woman
>>=20
>> the belgian people (plural)
>> a belgian man/woman
>>=20
>> the italian people (plural)
>> an italian man/woman
>>=20
>> ..and so on
>>=20
>> on the other hand one can also say :
>>=20
>> the germans (plural)
>> the belgians (plural)
>> the italians (plural)
>>=20
>>=20
>> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
>> depending on the context ?
>> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
>>=20
>> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite =
klingon
>> expression), should i say
>> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' =
Ha'DIbaHmey} ?
>>=20
>> ..which brings up another question
>>=20
>> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use =
{-pu'} or
>> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
>>=20
>> cpt qunnoQ
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_4776CAF3-9350-49D5-9B34-4FEC2DEC741A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=windows-1252
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">wejpuH.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Learn the rules and the rules change.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, since {tlhIngan Hol} actually means =
{tlhIngan wo=92 Hol} that suggests that {tlhIngan wo=92} means =93a =
Klingon=92s empire, and what we are really saying is, =93a Klingon=92s =
empire=92s language=94.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">No wonder they shortened it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Hmm.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But since it also can be called {ta=92 =
Hol}, that suggests that it=92s also =93the emperor=92s language=94. So, =
even though there may be a lot of tlhInganpu=92 who speak the language, =
only the emperor gets the language named after his rank. Others may =
speak other Klingon languages or dialects, but though they are Klingons, =
they can=92t call what they speak {tlhIngan Hol} unless it=92s the =
emperor=92s dialect. And I guess that other Klingon planets that speak =
ta=92 Hol don=92t get a language named after their planet, like =
everybody else...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">But Vulcans apparently don=92t have a leader who dictates the =
current dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAVE any dialects, and it=92s =
apparently appropriate to name the language after the planet instead of =
the people who live there, or any individuals who live there. And =
Ferengi and Earth and all the other planets and the =
Federation=85</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Hmm.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So, tera=92nganpu=92 speak Federation Standard, and though =
the Vulcans are part of the Federation, they speak the language named =
after their planet=85 when they aren=92t speaking DIvI=92 Hol, of =
course=85 And all the other planets of the Federation and the countries =
in them seem to speak their own language, plus Federation =
Standard=85</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">wejpuH.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe=92ba=92. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu=92. =
There are no universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to =
describe the examples. The examples were not created by using rules. =
While every rule has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows =
itself not to be a very good rule.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</div><div =
class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a =
href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" class=3D"">felixm@kth.se</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, =
Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">> Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} =
because the planet</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">> doesn=92t speak the language. It=92s =
inhabitants do.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, =
Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the =
fact that Marc Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan =
Hol} should more appropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the =
language of the Klingon Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan =
Hol}).<br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, =
Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt" =
class=3D"">http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt</a><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-family: Calibri, =
Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way =
to refer to a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than =
"country+ngan + Hol".</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); word-wrap: break-word;" class=3D""><hr tabindex=3D"-1"=
style=3D"display: inline-block; width: 1338.671875px;" class=3D""><div =
id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, =
sans-serif" style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Will Martin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, November 12, 2015 =
22:50<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>tlhInganHol discussion =
group<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: =
plural in nationalities</font><div class=3D""> </div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">For what it=92s worth, I would have said =
{vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan loD}, since you=92d be talking about a =
man of the planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a =
servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The =
relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. The =
relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so =
much.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Keep in =
mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally means =
=93a Klingon=92s language=94, or =93the language of a Klingon=94. =
{tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly =
translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to =
call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because the planet doesn=92t speak the language. =
It=92s inhabitants do.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <<a =
href=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by =
calling them "Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the =
construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the =
descriptor. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes =
sense as a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals =
inferior/insulting in this way. However, I would not use a plural =
at all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, =
I would say it as a complete sentence.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!</div><div =
class=3D"">You are a Ferengi dog!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!</div><div =
class=3D"">You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This uses the pronoun to specify the =
plural, and makes it clear that it is an insult, rather than a =
description of Ferengi animals.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For the first set of questions, I would =
personally translate it thus:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">vulqangan loD - the Vulcan =
man</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">vulqanganpu'=
- the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people =
(all the vulcans)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I hope this =
helps,</div><div class=3D"">be''etlh</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:cartweel@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cartweel@gmail.com</a>></span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Hi! I=92m =91arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=92s Grammarian! =
Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=92ll =
take a shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest =
of the community for consideration.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">I am confident =
that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions. First of all, =
concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, a general =
rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the =
<-pu=92> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it =
off and let context do the work for you if that is what you =
want.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Secondly, in phrases like <verengan =
Ha=92DIbaH>, we are really talking about a <Ha=92DIbaH>, not a =
<verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us information about =
the animal; <Ha=92DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we =
would use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha=92DIbaH> =
is incapable of speech. Of course, one might use <-pu> for =
artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha=92DIbaH, but that is =
not the norm!</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">As for what I think is your most central =
question, I=92ll describe how I=92d approach it but admit that other =
speakers might have a clearer idea than me.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have =
pluralized <verengan Ha=92DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose =
one way of saying it to make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, =
I think we would say <verengan Ha=92DIbaHmey> to talk about =
animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaHmey> says the =
same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals =
belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaH> suggests =
an animal belonging to several Ferengi.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">It is my =
understanding that <verengan Ha=92DIbaH> is, technically speaking, =
a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section =
3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please let =
me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">[And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from =
other speakers, especially on the last point!]</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">'arHa</div><div =
class=3D"">Beginner's Grammarian</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">Message: 2<br =
class=3D"">Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200<br class=3D"">From: =
qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>><br class=3D"">To: tlhIngan Hol =
mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank"=
class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br class=3D"">Subject: =
[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities<br class=3D"">Message-ID:<br=
class=3D""> <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br =
class=3D"">Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<span class=3D""><br=
class=3D""><br class=3D"">should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if =
not,please tell me..<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
class=3D"">anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses =
me.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">in english one can say =
:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">the german people (plural)<br class=3D"">a =
german man/woman<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">the belgian people =
(plural)<br class=3D"">a belgian man/woman<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">the italian people (plural)<br class=3D"">an italian =
man/woman<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">..and so on<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">on the other hand one can also say :<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">the germans (plural)<br class=3D"">the belgians (plural)<br =
class=3D"">the italians (plural)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both =
singular/plural<br class=3D"">depending on the context ?<br class=3D"">i =
can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">if i want to call a group of people =
<<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingon<br =
class=3D"">expression), should i say<br class=3D"">{verengan =
Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey} ?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">..which brings up another question<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">if the plural suffix is to be put on the =
second word,should i use {-pu'} or<br class=3D"">{-mey} ? I mean the =
ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">cpt qunnoQ<br =
class=3D""></span></blockquote></div></div></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_4776CAF3-9350-49D5-9B34-4FEC2DEC741A--
--===============6294095297983788923==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============6294095297983788923==--
