[102277] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Thu Nov 12 17:16:07 2015
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>, tlhInganHol discussion group
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:15:49 +0000
In-Reply-To: <C7D1AC87-6133-42F5-8EEE-8BA97A4E78D4@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because the plan=
et
> doesn=92t speak the language. It=92s inhabitants do.
My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that Marc O=
krand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should more appr=
opriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the Klingon Empire=
" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).
http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt
In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer to a =
national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than "country+ngan + Hol"=
.
________________________________
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50
To: tlhInganHol discussion group
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
For what it=92s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan lo=
D}, since you=92d be talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and not a man=
of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I k=
now about the genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet is =
genitive. The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ea=
r, not so much.
Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally =
means =93a Klingon=92s language=94, or =93the language of a Klingon=94. {tl=
hIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly translated i=
nto English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92=
noS Hol} because the planet doesn=92t speak the language. It=92s inhabitant=
s do.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail=
.com<mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>> wrote:
I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them "Fere=
ngi dogs." In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan Ha'DIb=
aH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.
This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as a Kl=
ingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in this=
way. However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always optional a=
s 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, I would say it as a complete sentence.
verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
You are a Ferengi dog!
verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it is =
an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
I hope this helps,
be''etlh
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel@gmail.com<mailto=
:cartweel@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi! I=92m =91arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=92s Grammarian! Thanks for you=
r question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=92ll take a shot at an=
swering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the community fo=
r consideration.
I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions. Fir=
st of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, a gen=
eral rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the <-pu=
=92> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it off and let =
context do the work for you if that is what you want.
Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=92DIbaH>, we are really talking abou=
t a <Ha=92DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us informat=
ion about the animal; <Ha=92DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we w=
ould use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha=92DIbaH> is incapable of =
speech. Of course, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story=
about a talking Ha=92DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
As for what I think is your most central question, I=92ll describe how I=92=
d approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer idea than =
me.
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <veren=
gan Ha=92DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it to make=
subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan =
Ha=92DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92D=
IbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that=
the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaH> sugge=
sts an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=92DIbaH> is, technically speaking,=
a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section 3.4=
of The Klingon Dictionary.
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
[And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other speakers=
, especially on the last point!]
'arHa
Beginner's Grammarian
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli=
.org>>
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
Message-ID:
<CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3Dx4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.c=
om<mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
in english one can say :
the german people (plural)
a german man/woman
the belgian people (plural)
a belgian man/woman
the italian people (plural)
an italian man/woman
..and so on
on the other hand one can also say :
the germans (plural)
the belgians (plural)
the italians (plural)
in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
depending on the context ?
i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingon
expression), should i say
{verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey} =
?
..which brings up another question
if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} or
{-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
cpt qunnoQ
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Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<p>> Meanwhile, you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because th=
e planet</p>
<p>> doesn=92t speak the language. It=92s inhabitants do.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that Mar=
c Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should more a=
ppropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the Klingo=
n Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta'
tlhIngan Hol}).<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer to=
a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than &qu=
ot;country+ngan + Hol".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Will Martin <lojm=
itti7wi7nuv@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhInganHol discussion group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"">For what it=92s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and n=
ot {vulqangan loD}, since you=92d be talking about a man of the planet Vulc=
an and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a V=
ulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive.
The relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. The relations=
hip between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so much.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan=
Hol} literally means =93a Klingon=92s language=94, or =93the language of a=
Klingon=94. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commo=
nly translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile,
you wouldn=92t tend to call it {Qo=92noS Hol} because the planet doesn=92t=
speak the language. It=92s inhabitants do.</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:s=
eparate; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Helvetica; font-style:normal; font-v=
ariant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:norma=
l; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; wid=
ows:2; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"">pItlh</div>
<div class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <<a href=
=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com" class=3D"">elizabeth.lawrence08@=
gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting =
people by calling them "Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he =
is using the construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is th=
e descriptor.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it mak=
es sense as a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals infer=
ior/insulting in this way. However, I would not use a plural at all (=
they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out).
Instead, I would say it as a complete sentence.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!</div>
<div class=3D"">You are a Ferengi dog!</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!</div>
<div class=3D"">You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it c=
lear that it is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.</d=
iv>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">For the first set of questions, I would personally translat=
e it thus:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)</di=
v>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I hope this helps,</div>
<div class=3D"">be''etlh</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness=
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<<a href=3D"mailto:cartweel@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">cart=
weel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi! I=92m =91arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=92s Gra=
mmarian! Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=
=92ll take a shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the r=
est of the community for consideration.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects=
of your questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or speci=
es names) plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional.=
You can add the <-pu=92> if you think
it is necessary, but you can always leave it off and let context do the wo=
rk for you if that is what you want.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=92DIbaH>=
;, we are really talking about a <Ha=92DIbaH>, not a <verengan>=
. The <verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha=
=92DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey&=
gt;
plural suffix because the <Ha=92DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of co=
urse, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about =
a talking Ha=92DIbaH, but that is not the norm!</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for what I think is your most central question, I=
=92ll describe how I=92d approach it but admit that other speakers might ha=
ve a clearer idea than me.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <ve=
rengan Ha=92DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it t=
o make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <=
verengan Ha=92DIbaHmey> to talk about animals
from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaHmey> says the same thing, =
more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belong to a group=
of Ferengi. <verenganpu=92 Ha=92DIbaH> suggests an animal belonging =
to several Ferengi.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=92DIbaH&=
gt; is, technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the =
rules for this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[And since this is my first BG response I welcome in=
put from other speakers, especially on the last point!]</p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">'arHa</div>
<div class=3D"">Beginner's Grammarian</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""> </div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
Message: 2<br class=3D"">
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200<br class=3D"">
From: qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>><br class=3D"">
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank" class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br class=3D"">
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities<br class=3D"">
Message-ID:<br class=3D"">
<CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D""=
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<span class=3D""><br c=
lass=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..<br class=3D""=
>
<br class=3D"">
</span><span class=3D"">anyway,I would like to ask about something that con=
fuses me.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
in english one can say :<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the german people (plural)<br class=3D"">
a german man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the belgian people (plural)<br class=3D"">
a belgian man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the italian people (plural)<br class=3D"">
an italian man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
..and so on<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
on the other hand one can also say :<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the germans (plural)<br class=3D"">
the belgians (plural)<br class=3D"">
the italians (plural)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural<br cla=
ss=3D"">
depending on the context ?<br class=3D"">
i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.<br class=
=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favori=
te klingon<br class=3D"">
expression), should i say<br class=3D"">
{verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey} =
?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
..which brings up another question<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} or=
<br class=3D"">
{-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..<br clas=
s=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
cpt qunnoQ<br class=3D"">
</span></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
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rrer" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlh=
ingan-hol</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>=
<br class=3D"">
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br class=3D"">
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
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