[102276] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Nov 12 16:50:26 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:50:09 -0500
To: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAG_hjBSuV4ggox_6+UpbUbRpjyS1_yfdWysuGhwfVCyBTdUOgA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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For what it=E2=80=99s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not =
{vulqangan loD}, since you=E2=80=99d be talking about a man of the =
planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or =
slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The =
relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. The =
relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so =
much.
Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} =
literally means =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=9D, or =
=E2=80=9Cthe language of a Klingon=E2=80=9D. {tlhIngan} remains a noun =
at all times and is not, as is commonly translated into English, an =
adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t tend to call it {Qo=E2=80=99noS=
Hol} because the planet doesn=E2=80=99t speak the language. It=E2=80=99s =
inhabitants do.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence =
<elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them =
"Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the construction =
<<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor. =20
>=20
> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as =
a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting =
in this way. However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always =
optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, I would say it as a complete =
sentence.
>=20
> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
> You are a Ferengi dog!
>=20
> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
>=20
> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that =
it is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
>=20
> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
>=20
> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
>=20
> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
>=20
> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
>=20
>=20
> I hope this helps,
> be''etlh
>=20
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel@gmail.com =
<mailto:cartweel@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=E2=80=99s =
Grammarian! Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with =
KLBC. I=E2=80=99ll take a shot at answering your questions before =
opening it up to the rest of the community for consideration.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your =
questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species =
names) plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. =
You can add the <-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can =
always leave it off and let context do the work for you if that is what =
you want.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, we are really =
talking about a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> =
simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is the =
main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural suffix =
because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one =
might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking =
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> As for what I think is your most central question, I=E2=80=99ll =
describe how I=E2=80=99d approach it but admit that other speakers might =
have a clearer idea than me.
>=20
> As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized =
<verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of =
saying it to make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we =
would say <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from =
Ferenginar. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> says the same =
thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belong =
to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> suggests =
an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is, =
technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules =
for this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.
>=20
> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> [And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other =
speakers, especially on the last point!]
>=20
>=20
> 'arHa
> Beginner's Grammarian
>=20
> =20
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>>
> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org =
<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
> Message-ID:
> =
<CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3Dx4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com =
<mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>=20
> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
>=20
> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
>=20
>=20
> in english one can say :
>=20
> the german people (plural)
> a german man/woman
>=20
> the belgian people (plural)
> a belgian man/woman
>=20
> the italian people (plural)
> an italian man/woman
>=20
> ..and so on
>=20
> on the other hand one can also say :
>=20
> the germans (plural)
> the belgians (plural)
> the italians (plural)
>=20
>=20
> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
> depending on the context ?
> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
>=20
> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite =
klingon
> expression), should i say
> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' =
Ha'DIbaHmey} ?
>=20
> ..which brings up another question
>=20
> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use =
{-pu'} or
> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
>=20
> cpt qunnoQ
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">For what it=E2=80=99s worth, I would have =
said {vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan loD}, since you=E2=80=99d be =
talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as =
in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the =
genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. =
The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not =
so much.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Keep =
in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally =
means =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cthe =
language of a Klingon=E2=80=9D. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times =
and is not, as is commonly translated into English, an adjective. =
Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t tend to call it {Qo=E2=80=99noS Hol} =
because the planet doesn=E2=80=99t speak the language. It=E2=80=99s =
inhabitants do.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
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0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <<a =
href=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by =
calling them "Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the =
construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the =
descriptor. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes =
sense as a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals =
inferior/insulting in this way. However, I would not use a plural =
at all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, =
I would say it as a complete sentence.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!</div><div =
class=3D"">You are a Ferengi dog!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!</div><div =
class=3D"">You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This uses the pronoun to specify the =
plural, and makes it clear that it is an insult, rather than a =
description of Ferengi animals.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For the first set of questions, I would =
personally translate it thus:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">vulqangan loD - the Vulcan =
man</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">vulqanganpu'=
- the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people =
(all the vulcans)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I hope this =
helps,</div><div class=3D"">be''etlh</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:cartweel@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cartweel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the =
newly-minted Beginner=E2=80=99s Grammarian!
Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=E2=80=99=
ll take a
shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the
community for consideration.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br =
class=3D""></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am confident that I can clearly =
answer two aspects of your
questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species =
names)
plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You =
can add
the <-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can =
always leave it off
and let context do the work for you if that is what you want.</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Secondly, =
in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, we are
really talking about a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. =
The
<verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; =
<Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>
is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural =
suffix
because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, =
one might use
<-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking =
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH, but
that is not the norm!</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D""></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">As for what I think is your most central question, =
I=E2=80=99ll
describe how I=E2=80=99d approach it but admit that other speakers might =
have a clearer
idea than me.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized =
<verengan
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it =
to make subtle
changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan =
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey>
to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 =
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> says the
same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals =
belong to
a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> =
suggests an animal belonging
to several Ferengi.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D""></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">It is my understanding that <verengan =
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is,
technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules =
for
this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!</p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">[And since =
this is my first BG response I welcome input from
other speakers, especially on the last point!]</p></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">'arHa</div><div =
class=3D"">Beginner's Grammarian</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Message: 2<br class=3D"">
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200<br class=3D"">
From: qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>><br class=3D"">
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br class=3D"">
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities<br class=3D"">
Message-ID:<br class=3D"">
<CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br =
class=3D"">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<span class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></span><span class=3D"">
anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
in english one can say :<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the german people (plural)<br class=3D"">
a german man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the belgian people (plural)<br class=3D"">
a belgian man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the italian people (plural)<br class=3D"">
an italian man/woman<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
..and so on<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
on the other hand one can also say :<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
the germans (plural)<br class=3D"">
the belgians (plural)<br class=3D"">
the italians (plural)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural<br =
class=3D"">
depending on the context ?<br class=3D"">
i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my =
favorite klingon<br class=3D"">
expression), should i say<br class=3D"">
{verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' =
Ha'DIbaHmey} ?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
..which brings up another question<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} =
or<br class=3D"">
{-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
cpt qunnoQ<br class=3D""></span></blockquote></div></div></div>
<br class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">
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class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
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