[102269] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Elizabeth Lawrence)
Thu Nov 12 14:36:03 2015
In-Reply-To: <CAOJo7iqgf3VgQckqqtREc7arsW+o4BiXO7kRuS-wqcdynT6y3g@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:35:47 -0500
From: Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhInganHol discussion group <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them
"Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan
Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.
This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as a
Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in
this way. However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always
optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, I would say it as a complete
sentence.
verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
You are a Ferengi dog!
verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it is
an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
I hope this helps,
be''etlh
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=E2=80=99s Gramma=
rian! Thanks for your
> question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=E2=80=99ll take a shot=
at
> answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the communit=
y
> for consideration.
>
>
> I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions.
> First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, =
a
> general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the
> <-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it =
off and
> let context do the work for you if that is what you want.
>
>
> Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, we are really talk=
ing about
> a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us in=
formation
> about the animal; <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, =
we would
> use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable =
of speech.
> Of course, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about=
a
> talking Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
>
>
> As for what I think is your most central question, I=E2=80=99ll describe =
how I=E2=80=99d
> approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer idea than =
me.
>
> As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized
> <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of say=
ing it to
> make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say
> <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <ve=
renganpu=E2=80=99
> Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you may be em=
phasizing
> that the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=
=80=99DIbaH>
> suggests an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
>
>
> It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is, technically s=
peaking,
> a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section 3.=
4
> of The Klingon Dictionary.
>
> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
>
>
> [And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other
> speakers, especially on the last point!]
>
> 'arHa
> Beginner's Grammarian
>
>
>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
>> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
>> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D
>> x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>>
>> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
>>
>> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
>>
>>
>> in english one can say :
>>
>> the german people (plural)
>> a german man/woman
>>
>> the belgian people (plural)
>> a belgian man/woman
>>
>> the italian people (plural)
>> an italian man/woman
>>
>> ..and so on
>>
>> on the other hand one can also say :
>>
>> the germans (plural)
>> the belgians (plural)
>> the italians (plural)
>>
>>
>> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
>> depending on the context ?
>> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
>>
>> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingo=
n
>> expression), should i say
>> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu'
>> Ha'DIbaHmey} ?
>>
>> ..which brings up another question
>>
>> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'}
>> or
>> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
>>
>> cpt qunnoQ
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by c=
alling them "Ferengi dogs." =C2=A0In that case, if he is using th=
e construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the d=
escriptor. =C2=A0<div><br></div><div>This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am no=
t certain that it makes sense as a Klingon insult.=C2=A0 Not all cultures c=
onsider animals inferior/insulting in this way.=C2=A0 However, I would not =
use a plural at all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out=
).=C2=A0 Instead, I would say it as a complete sentence.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!</div><div>You are a Ferengi dog!</div><di=
v><br></div><div>verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!</div><div>You (plural) are Fe=
rengi dogs!</div><div><br></div><div>This uses the pronoun to specify the p=
lural, and makes it clear that it is an insult, rather than a description o=
f Ferengi animals.</div><div><br></div><div>For the first set of questions,=
I would personally translate it thus:</div><div><br></div><div>vulqangan l=
oD - the Vulcan man</div><div><br></div><div>vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans=
(a group of vulcans)</div><div><br></div><div>Hoch vulqanganpu' - the =
Vulcan people (all the vulcans)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I h=
ope this helps,</div><div>be''etlh</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John =
R. Harness <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:cartweel@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">cartweel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the ne=
wly-minted Beginner=E2=80=99s Grammarian!
Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=E2=80=99=
ll take a
shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the
community for consideration.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects=
of your
questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names)
plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can a=
dd
the <-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can always l=
eave it off
and let context do the work for you if that is what you want.</p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DI=
baH>, we are
really talking about a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. Th=
e
<verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha=E2=80=
=99DIbaH>
is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural su=
ffix
because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one=
might use
<-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha=E2=80=
=99DIbaH, but
that is not the norm!</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for what I think is your most central question, I=
=E2=80=99ll
describe how I=E2=80=99d approach it but admit that other speakers might ha=
ve a clearer
idea than me.<br>
<br>
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <ve=
rengan
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it to=
make subtle
changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan Ha=E2=
=80=99DIbaHmey>
to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99D=
IbaHmey> says the
same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belon=
g to
a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> suggests a=
n animal belonging
to several Ferengi.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is,
technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules fo=
r
this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.<br>
<br>
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!</p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[And since this is my first BG response I welcome in=
put from
other speakers, especially on the last point!]</p></div><div><br></div><div=
>'arHa</div><div>Beginner's Grammarian</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200<br>
From: qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>mihkoun@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">x4Cn2FUz+e=
SSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..<br>
<br></span><span class=3D"">
anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.<br>
<br>
<br>
in english one can say :<br>
<br>
the german people (plural)<br>
a german man/woman<br>
<br>
the belgian people (plural)<br>
a belgian man/woman<br>
<br>
the italian people (plural)<br>
an italian man/woman<br>
<br>
..and so on<br>
<br>
on the other hand one can also say :<br>
<br>
the germans (plural)<br>
the belgians (plural)<br>
the italians (plural)<br>
<br>
<br>
in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural<br>
depending on the context ?<br>
i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.<b=
r>
<br>
if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favori=
te klingon<br>
expression), should i say<br>
{verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu=
9; Ha'DIbaHmey} ?<br>
<br>
..which brings up another question<br>
<br>
if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'=
} or<br>
{-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..<br>
<br>
cpt qunnoQ<br></span></blockquote></div></div></div>
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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