[102266] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] rup
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karen Alessio)
Thu Nov 12 14:26:29 2015
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJMu-mkcJifwxuim-t6D_bxT34BwyFJqOOqKstG4+ubMw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:26:12 -0500
From: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>
To: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I think he meant nouns in different classes as being seperate grammatical
genders
On Nov 12, 2015 1:53 PM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> > and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally
> alien to human languages)
>
> what is a "gendered noun" ?
>
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The backstory on this is less romantic, but more interesting than you
>> might have expected.
>>
>> One of the challenges Marc Okrand has had is that sometimes circumstance=
s
>> press HIM to make changes in the language. He=E2=80=99s long tried to ma=
ke sure
>> that anyone who learns the language should be able to go to a movie wher=
e
>> someone speaks the language and understand what that person is saying.
>>
>> But movie making sometimes involves decisions that involve using scenes
>> differently than they were expected to be used in the movie. In one case=
,
>> in one of the very first scripts, the actor had a line which Okrand
>> translated properly according to the vocabulary and grammar that he had
>> developed at that time. The scene was shot, and then later, the director
>> changed the subtitle, making the line mean something completely differen=
t.
>>
>> The line had a now-disappeared verb {ma=E2=80=99}, with it=E2=80=99s pre=
fix {qa-} and
>> what was at the time a past tense suffix {-pu=E2=80=99}. The word was {q=
ama=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99}.
>> But the new meaning forced that word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D=
. He has
>> subsequently made the verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=E2=80=
=9D, which is apparently
>> what he had to do to satisfy his director. And the word {qama=E2=80=99} =
became
>> =E2=80=9Cprisoner=E2=80=9D. But he had already used the plural suffix {-=
mey} in other
>> lines, so he had to come up for some reason to have two different plural
>> suffixes=E2=80=A6
>>
>> Since then, Klingon lost tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the perfective,=
and we
>> have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally alien to
>> human languages, but consistent within the movies and television shows t=
hat
>> use the language.
>>
>> There=E2=80=99s a similar story behind the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99}=
used to create a
>> question. The scene was shot in English and he had to add words to keep =
the
>> actor=E2=80=99s lips moving when it was dubbed into Klingon=E2=80=A6
>>
>> In the early days, this kind of thing happened a lot.
>>
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Fatairae <fatairae@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> All of which is a fascinating insight into the culture that spawned the
>> culture. Is the gender a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit stateme=
nt
>> of subjective opinion by the speaker?
>> To use a couple Terran languages as references (since what are our
>> brains, but giant categorizing machines):
>> In English (through old English), we have relics of the gender system,
>> though only recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs mouse/mice).
>> We don't think of these as "categories" of words. A similar example (in
>> many of the Indo-European languages) is the disjoint between the feminin=
e
>> gender, and what is actually female. If I remember correctly, the old
>> English "wif" (wife) is masculine. Tamilian has a completely different
>> system (similar to Klingon actually), where by all sentient things get o=
ne
>> gender, and everything else goes in the other.
>>
>> So, the question becomes one of philosophy or grammar? Is it a
>> hardcoded system, wherein it sounds as wrong as "mouses", or is it an
>> active "philosophical" choice on the part of the speaker to make a
>> statement about the subject? To say "I acknowledge speaking", on the pa=
rt
>> of the target; and thus its import is specific to the subjective opinion=
of
>> the speaker?
>>
>> None of which is solved by "canon", but fun to hash out the concepts fro=
m
>> what we have anyway hehe.
>>
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by the ability to
>> use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =E2=80=9Chas =
a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him
>> at his word. As a class of nouns, is this an example of a being capable =
of
>> using language? If someone speaks of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably w=
ould not be
>> able to stop myself from responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targ=
hmeylIj SoH
>> je? boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">I think he meant nouns in different classes as being seperat=
e grammatical genders</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 12, 2015 1:53 PM, "qunnoQ HoD" =
<<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<b=
r type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
>> and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionall=
y alien to human languages)<br><br></div>what is a "gendered noun"=
; ?<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"m=
ailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.co=
m</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word"><div>The backstory on this is less romantic, but more in=
teresting than you might have expected.</div><div><br></div><div>One of the=
challenges Marc Okrand has had is that sometimes circumstances press HIM t=
o make changes in the language. He=E2=80=99s long tried to make sure that a=
nyone who learns the language should be able to go to a movie where someone=
speaks the language and understand what that person is saying.</div><div><=
br></div><div>But movie making sometimes involves decisions that involve us=
ing scenes differently than they were expected to be used in the movie. In =
one case, in one of the very first scripts, the actor had a line which Okra=
nd translated properly according to the vocabulary and grammar that he had =
developed at that time. The scene was shot, and then later, the director ch=
anged the subtitle, making the line mean something completely different.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The line had a now-disappeared verb {ma=E2=80=99}, w=
ith it=E2=80=99s prefix {qa-} and what was at the time a past tense suffix =
{-pu=E2=80=99}. The word was {qama=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99}. But the new meanin=
g forced that word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D. He has subsequently=
made the verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=E2=80=9D, which is a=
pparently what he had to do to satisfy his director. And the word {qama=E2=
=80=99} became =E2=80=9Cprisoner=E2=80=9D. But he had already used the plur=
al suffix {-mey} in other lines, so he had to come up for some reason to ha=
ve two different plural suffixes=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>Since th=
en, Klingon lost tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the perfective, and we hav=
e gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally alien to human=
languages, but consistent within the movies and television shows that use =
the language.</div><div><br></div><div>There=E2=80=99s a similar story behi=
nd the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} used to create a question. The scene w=
as shot in English and he had to add words to keep the actor=E2=80=99s lips=
moving when it was dubbed into Klingon=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div>I=
n the early days, this kind of thing happened a lot.</div><span><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 12, 2015, a=
t 1:25 PM, Fatairae <<a href=3D"mailto:fatairae@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">fatairae@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>All of which is a fasc=
inating insight into the culture that spawned the culture.=C2=A0 Is the gen=
der a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit statement of subjective opinio=
n by the speaker?<br> =C2=A0To use a couple Terran languages as references =
(since what are our brains, but giant categorizing machines):<br> =C2=A0In =
English (through old English), we have relics of the gender system, though =
only recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs mouse/mice).=C2=A0 We =
don't think of these as "categories" of words.=C2=A0 A simila=
r example (in many of the Indo-European languages) is the disjoint between =
the feminine gender, and what is actually female. If I remember correctly, =
the old English "wif" (wife) is masculine.=C2=A0 Tamilian has a c=
ompletely different system (similar to Klingon actually), where by all sent=
ient things get one gender, and everything else goes in the other.<br><br> =
=C2=A0So, the question becomes one of philosophy or grammar?=C2=A0 Is it a =
hardcoded system, wherein it sounds as wrong as "mouses", or is i=
t an active "philosophical" choice on the part of the speaker to =
make a statement about the subject?=C2=A0 To say "I acknowledge speaki=
ng", on the part of the target; and thus its import is specific to the=
subjective opinion of the speaker?<br><br>None of which is solved by "=
;canon", but fun to hash out the concepts from what we have anyway heh=
e.<br><br><br>On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <<a href=3D"mailto:=
lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br><br>When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by=
the ability to use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =
=E2=80=9Chas a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As a class of nouns, =
is this an example of a being capable of using language? If someone speaks =
of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would not be able to stop myself from =
responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targhmeylIj SoH je? boja=
=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}<br><br><br><br>_____________=
__________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>=
<br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D=
"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br></div></b=
lockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_________________________________=
______________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
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a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
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