[102264] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (John R. Harness)
Thu Nov 12 14:07:24 2015
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:07:09 -0600
From: "John R. Harness" <cartweel@gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the newly-minted Beginner=E2=80=99s Grammari=
an! Thanks for your
question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=E2=80=99ll take a shot a=
t
answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the community
for consideration.
I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions.
First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, a
general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the
<-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it of=
f and
let context do the work for you if that is what you want.
Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, we are really talkin=
g about
a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us info=
rmation
about the animal; <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we=
would
use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable of=
speech.
Of course, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a
talking Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
As for what I think is your most central question, I=E2=80=99ll describe ho=
w I=E2=80=99d
approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer idea than me=
.
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized
<verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of sayin=
g it to
make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say
<verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <vere=
nganpu=E2=80=99
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you may be emph=
asizing
that the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=
=80=99DIbaH>
suggests an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is, technically spe=
aking, a
noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section 3.4 of
The Klingon Dictionary.
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
[And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other
speakers, especially on the last point!]
'arHa
Beginner's Grammarian
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
> Message-ID:
> <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D
> x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>
> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
>
> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
>
>
> in english one can say :
>
> the german people (plural)
> a german man/woman
>
> the belgian people (plural)
> a belgian man/woman
>
> the italian people (plural)
> an italian man/woman
>
> ..and so on
>
> on the other hand one can also say :
>
> the germans (plural)
> the belgians (plural)
> the italians (plural)
>
>
> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
> depending on the context ?
> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
>
> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingon
> expression), should i say
> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey=
}
> ?
>
> ..which brings up another question
>
> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} =
or
> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
>
> cpt qunnoQ
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi! I=E2=80=99m =E2=80=98arHa, the newly-minted Beg=
inner=E2=80=99s Grammarian!
Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I=E2=80=99=
ll take a
shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the
community for consideration.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects=
of your
questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names)
plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can a=
dd
the <-pu=E2=80=99> if you think it is necessary, but you can always l=
eave it off
and let context do the work for you if that is what you want.</p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DI=
baH>, we are
really talking about a <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. Th=
e
<verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha=E2=80=
=99DIbaH>
is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural su=
ffix
because the <Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one=
might use
<-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha=E2=80=
=99DIbaH, but
that is not the norm!</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for what I think is your most central question, I=
=E2=80=99ll
describe how I=E2=80=99d approach it but admit that other speakers might ha=
ve a clearer
idea than me.<br>
<br>
As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <ve=
rengan
Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it to=
make subtle
changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan Ha=E2=
=80=99DIbaHmey>
to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99D=
IbaHmey> says the
same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belon=
g to
a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu=E2=80=99 Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> suggests a=
n animal belonging
to several Ferengi.</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">It is my understanding that <verengan Ha=E2=80=99DIbaH> is,
technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules fo=
r
this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.<br>
<br>
Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!</p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[And since this is my first BG response I welcome in=
put from
other speakers, especially on the last point!]</p></div><div><br></div><div=
>'arHa</div><div>Beginner's Grammarian</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex">
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200<br>
From: qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com=
</a>><br>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">t=
lhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=3D<a href=3D"mailt=
o:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@mail.gmail.com">x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA@m=
ail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<br>
<br>
should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..<br>
<br>
anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.<br>
<br>
<br>
in english one can say :<br>
<br>
the german people (plural)<br>
a german man/woman<br>
<br>
the belgian people (plural)<br>
a belgian man/woman<br>
<br>
the italian people (plural)<br>
an italian man/woman<br>
<br>
..and so on<br>
<br>
on the other hand one can also say :<br>
<br>
the germans (plural)<br>
the belgians (plural)<br>
the italians (plural)<br>
<br>
<br>
in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural<br>
depending on the context ?<br>
i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.<b=
r>
<br>
if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favori=
te klingon<br>
expression), should i say<br>
{verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu=
9; Ha'DIbaHmey} ?<br>
<br>
..which brings up another question<br>
<br>
if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'=
} or<br>
{-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..<br>
<br>
cpt qunnoQ<br></blockquote></div></div></div>
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