[102261] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] rup
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Thu Nov 12 13:53:04 2015
In-Reply-To: <7913D9F7-E510-4166-B9BC-92EDE23FD14B@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:52:47 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally
alien to human languages)
what is a "gendered noun" ?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The backstory on this is less romantic, but more interesting than you
> might have expected.
>
> One of the challenges Marc Okrand has had is that sometimes circumstances
> press HIM to make changes in the language. He=E2=80=99s long tried to mak=
e sure
> that anyone who learns the language should be able to go to a movie where
> someone speaks the language and understand what that person is saying.
>
> But movie making sometimes involves decisions that involve using scenes
> differently than they were expected to be used in the movie. In one case,
> in one of the very first scripts, the actor had a line which Okrand
> translated properly according to the vocabulary and grammar that he had
> developed at that time. The scene was shot, and then later, the director
> changed the subtitle, making the line mean something completely different=
.
>
> The line had a now-disappeared verb {ma=E2=80=99}, with it=E2=80=99s pref=
ix {qa-} and what
> was at the time a past tense suffix {-pu=E2=80=99}. The word was {qama=E2=
=80=99pu=E2=80=99}. But
> the new meaning forced that word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D. He =
has subsequently
> made the verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=E2=80=9D, which is =
apparently what he had to
> do to satisfy his director. And the word {qama=E2=80=99} became =E2=80=9C=
prisoner=E2=80=9D. But he
> had already used the plural suffix {-mey} in other lines, so he had to co=
me
> up for some reason to have two different plural suffixes=E2=80=A6
>
> Since then, Klingon lost tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the perfective, =
and we
> have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally alien to
> human languages, but consistent within the movies and television shows th=
at
> use the language.
>
> There=E2=80=99s a similar story behind the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} =
used to create a
> question. The scene was shot in English and he had to add words to keep t=
he
> actor=E2=80=99s lips moving when it was dubbed into Klingon=E2=80=A6
>
> In the early days, this kind of thing happened a lot.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Fatairae <fatairae@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All of which is a fascinating insight into the culture that spawned the
> culture. Is the gender a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit statemen=
t
> of subjective opinion by the speaker?
> To use a couple Terran languages as references (since what are our
> brains, but giant categorizing machines):
> In English (through old English), we have relics of the gender system,
> though only recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs mouse/mice).
> We don't think of these as "categories" of words. A similar example (in
> many of the Indo-European languages) is the disjoint between the feminine
> gender, and what is actually female. If I remember correctly, the old
> English "wif" (wife) is masculine. Tamilian has a completely different
> system (similar to Klingon actually), where by all sentient things get on=
e
> gender, and everything else goes in the other.
>
> So, the question becomes one of philosophy or grammar? Is it a hardcode=
d
> system, wherein it sounds as wrong as "mouses", or is it an active
> "philosophical" choice on the part of the speaker to make a statement abo=
ut
> the subject? To say "I acknowledge speaking", on the part of the target;
> and thus its import is specific to the subjective opinion of the speaker?
>
> None of which is solved by "canon", but fun to hash out the concepts from
> what we have anyway hehe.
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by the ability to
> use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =E2=80=9Chas a=
soul=E2=80=9D. I take him
> at his word. As a class of nouns, is this an example of a being capable o=
f
> using language? If someone speaks of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably wo=
uld not be
> able to stop myself from responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targh=
meylIj SoH
> je? boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>> and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundari=
es being intentionally alien to human languages)<br><br></div>what is a &qu=
ot;gendered noun" ?<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"=
ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">loj=
mitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The backstory on this is less =
romantic, but more interesting than you might have expected.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>One of the challenges Marc Okrand has had is that sometimes circ=
umstances press HIM to make changes in the language. He=E2=80=99s long trie=
d to make sure that anyone who learns the language should be able to go to =
a movie where someone speaks the language and understand what that person i=
s saying.</div><div><br></div><div>But movie making sometimes involves deci=
sions that involve using scenes differently than they were expected to be u=
sed in the movie. In one case, in one of the very first scripts, the actor =
had a line which Okrand translated properly according to the vocabulary and=
grammar that he had developed at that time. The scene was shot, and then l=
ater, the director changed the subtitle, making the line mean something com=
pletely different.</div><div><br></div><div>The line had a now-disappeared =
verb {ma=E2=80=99}, with it=E2=80=99s prefix {qa-} and what was at the time=
a past tense suffix {-pu=E2=80=99}. The word was {qama=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99=
}. But the new meaning forced that word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D=
. He has subsequently made the verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=
=E2=80=9D, which is apparently what he had to do to satisfy his director. A=
nd the word {qama=E2=80=99} became =E2=80=9Cprisoner=E2=80=9D. But he had a=
lready used the plural suffix {-mey} in other lines, so he had to come up f=
or some reason to have two different plural suffixes=E2=80=A6</div><div><br=
></div><div>Since then, Klingon lost tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the pe=
rfective, and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentio=
nally alien to human languages, but consistent within the movies and televi=
sion shows that use the language.</div><div><br></div><div>There=E2=80=99s =
a similar story behind the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} used to create a q=
uestion. The scene was shot in English and he had to add words to keep the =
actor=E2=80=99s lips moving when it was dubbed into Klingon=E2=80=A6</div><=
div><br></div><div>In the early days, this kind of thing happened a lot.</d=
iv><span class=3D""><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On No=
v 12, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Fatairae <<a href=3D"mailto:fatairae@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">fatairae@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div>All of wh=
ich is a fascinating insight into the culture that spawned the culture.=C2=
=A0 Is the gender a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit statement of sub=
jective opinion by the speaker?<br> =C2=A0To use a couple Terran languages =
as references (since what are our brains, but giant categorizing machines):=
<br> =C2=A0In English (through old English), we have relics of the gender s=
ystem, though only recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs mouse/mi=
ce).=C2=A0 We don't think of these as "categories" of words.=
=C2=A0 A similar example (in many of the Indo-European languages) is the di=
sjoint between the feminine gender, and what is actually female. If I remem=
ber correctly, the old English "wif" (wife) is masculine.=C2=A0 T=
amilian has a completely different system (similar to Klingon actually), wh=
ere by all sentient things get one gender, and everything else goes in the =
other.<br><br> =C2=A0So, the question becomes one of philosophy or grammar?=
=C2=A0 Is it a hardcoded system, wherein it sounds as wrong as "mouses=
", or is it an active "philosophical" choice on the part of =
the speaker to make a statement about the subject?=C2=A0 To say "I ack=
nowledge speaking", on the part of the target; and thus its import is =
specific to the subjective opinion of the speaker?<br><br>None of which is =
solved by "canon", but fun to hash out the concepts from what we =
have anyway hehe.<br><br><br>On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender i=
s determined by the ability to use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is =
code words for =E2=80=9Chas a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As a c=
lass of nouns, is this an example of a being capable of using language? If =
someone speaks of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would not be able to st=
op myself from responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targhmeyl=
Ij SoH je? boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}<br><br><br><b=
r>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing l=
ist<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-h=
ol@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a=
><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>___________________=
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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