[102259] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] rup
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Nov 12 13:45:11 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:44:53 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
In-Reply-To: <F8327C3B-01E7-4406-A529-FE262952ACB0@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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The backstory on this is less romantic, but more interesting than you =
might have expected.
One of the challenges Marc Okrand has had is that sometimes =
circumstances press HIM to make changes in the language. He=E2=80=99s =
long tried to make sure that anyone who learns the language should be =
able to go to a movie where someone speaks the language and understand =
what that person is saying.
But movie making sometimes involves decisions that involve using scenes =
differently than they were expected to be used in the movie. In one =
case, in one of the very first scripts, the actor had a line which =
Okrand translated properly according to the vocabulary and grammar that =
he had developed at that time. The scene was shot, and then later, the =
director changed the subtitle, making the line mean something completely =
different.
The line had a now-disappeared verb {ma=E2=80=99}, with it=E2=80=99s =
prefix {qa-} and what was at the time a past tense suffix {-pu=E2=80=99}. =
The word was {qama=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99}. But the new meaning forced that =
word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D. He has subsequently made the =
verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=E2=80=9D, which is =
apparently what he had to do to satisfy his director. And the word =
{qama=E2=80=99} became =E2=80=9Cprisoner=E2=80=9D. But he had already =
used the plural suffix {-mey} in other lines, so he had to come up for =
some reason to have two different plural suffixes=E2=80=A6
Since then, Klingon lost tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the perfective, =
and we have gendered nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally =
alien to human languages, but consistent within the movies and =
television shows that use the language.
There=E2=80=99s a similar story behind the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} =
used to create a question. The scene was shot in English and he had to =
add words to keep the actor=E2=80=99s lips moving when it was dubbed =
into Klingon=E2=80=A6
In the early days, this kind of thing happened a lot.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Fatairae <fatairae@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> All of which is a fascinating insight into the culture that spawned =
the culture. Is the gender a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit =
statement of subjective opinion by the speaker?
> To use a couple Terran languages as references (since what are our =
brains, but giant categorizing machines):
> In English (through old English), we have relics of the gender =
system, though only recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs =
mouse/mice). We don't think of these as "categories" of words. A =
similar example (in many of the Indo-European languages) is the disjoint =
between the feminine gender, and what is actually female. If I remember =
correctly, the old English "wif" (wife) is masculine. Tamilian has a =
completely different system (similar to Klingon actually), where by all =
sentient things get one gender, and everything else goes in the other.
>=20
> So, the question becomes one of philosophy or grammar? Is it a =
hardcoded system, wherein it sounds as wrong as "mouses", or is it an =
active "philosophical" choice on the part of the speaker to make a =
statement about the subject? To say "I acknowledge speaking", on the =
part of the target; and thus its import is specific to the subjective =
opinion of the speaker?
>=20
> None of which is solved by "canon", but fun to hash out the concepts =
from what we have anyway hehe.
>=20
>=20
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by the ability =
to use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =E2=80=9Chas=
a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As a class of nouns, is this =
an example of a being capable of using language? If someone speaks of =
{targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would not be able to stop myself from =
responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targhmeylIj SoH je? =
boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">The backstory on this is less romantic, but =
more interesting than you might have expected.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One of the challenges Marc Okrand has =
had is that sometimes circumstances press HIM to make changes in the =
language. He=E2=80=99s long tried to make sure that anyone who learns =
the language should be able to go to a movie where someone speaks the =
language and understand what that person is saying.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But movie making =
sometimes involves decisions that involve using scenes differently than =
they were expected to be used in the movie. In one case, in one of the =
very first scripts, the actor had a line which Okrand translated =
properly according to the vocabulary and grammar that he had developed =
at that time. The scene was shot, and then later, the director changed =
the subtitle, making the line mean something completely =
different.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
line had a now-disappeared verb {ma=E2=80=99}, with it=E2=80=99s prefix =
{qa-} and what was at the time a past tense suffix {-pu=E2=80=99}. The =
word was {qama=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99}. But the new meaning forced that =
word to mean =E2=80=9Cprisoners=E2=80=9D. He has subsequently made the =
verb {ma=E2=80=99} mean =E2=80=9Caccommodate=E2=80=9D, which is =
apparently what he had to do to satisfy his director. And the word =
{qama=E2=80=99} became =E2=80=9Cprisoner=E2=80=9D. But he had already =
used the plural suffix {-mey} in other lines, so he had to come up for =
some reason to have two different plural suffixes=E2=80=A6</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Since then, Klingon lost =
tense, gained {-pu=E2=80=99} as the perfective, and we have gendered =
nouns (with gender boundaries being intentionally alien to human =
languages, but consistent within the movies and television shows that =
use the language.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s a similar story behind the verb {qar=E2=80=99a=E2=
=80=99} used to create a question. The scene was shot in English and he =
had to add words to keep the actor=E2=80=99s lips moving when it was =
dubbed into Klingon=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the early days, this kind of thing =
happened a lot.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Fatairae <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fatairae@gmail.com" class=3D"">fatairae@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">All =
of which is a fascinating insight into the culture that spawned the =
culture. Is the gender a relic of ancient usage? Or an explicit =
statement of subjective opinion by the speaker?<br class=3D""> To =
use a couple Terran languages as references (since what are our brains, =
but giant categorizing machines):<br class=3D""> In English =
(through old English), we have relics of the gender system, though only =
recognizable as such in plurals (wolf/wolves vs mouse/mice). We =
don't think of these as "categories" of words. A similar example =
(in many of the Indo-European languages) is the disjoint between the =
feminine gender, and what is actually female. If I remember correctly, =
the old English "wif" (wife) is masculine. Tamilian has a =
completely different system (similar to Klingon actually), where by all =
sentient things get one gender, and everything else goes in the =
other.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> So, the question becomes one =
of philosophy or grammar? Is it a hardcoded system, wherein it =
sounds as wrong as "mouses", or is it an active "philosophical" choice =
on the part of the speaker to make a statement about the subject? =
To say "I acknowledge speaking", on the part of the target; and =
thus its import is specific to the subjective opinion of the speaker?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">None of which is solved by "canon", but fun to =
hash out the concepts from what we have anyway hehe.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:50, Will Martin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by the =
ability to use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =
=E2=80=9Chas a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As a class of =
nouns, is this an example of a being capable of using language? If =
someone speaks of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would not be able to =
stop myself from responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targhmeylIj =
SoH je? boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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