[102242] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Nov 12 10:24:26 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:24:09 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAMwO7AEi-pO6yxjqDCtn8McWRM=_SxffVemDJ8Dw5VeyqapXHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Advice to anyone interested in becoming any kind of grammarian on this =
list: It helps to not be bothered by having others point out your =
errors. It took me years to learn this. This is a place where all your =
errors will come to light. Even ones that aren=E2=80=99t errors, but =
merely differences of opinion.
But in this case, yes, it was an error. It should have been =
{Separtanganpu=E2=80=99}.
And yes, I changed it because Klingons never initiate syllables with a =
consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as a student of Klingon, when you =
say {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT pronounced =E2=80=9Cka-plaa=E2=80=9D=
. The first syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is =
{la=E2=80=99}, not =E2=80=9Cplaaaaah=E2=80=9D. Most actors in the movies =
mispronounce it.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the =
ending for inhabitants of a place.
> I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
>=20
> On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com =
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Let me know if you approve.
>=20
> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey =
the defiance of the original phrase.
>=20
> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as =
simple as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and =
that's why I believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It =
expresses the culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many =
and flamboyant words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans =
were as close to Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated =
luxury,training constantly for war. And of course every Klingon would =
admire the fact,that 300 people stood against an empire killing =
thousands (literally) in hand to hand combat,achieving a glorious death =
in the end..
>=20
> > Separtanpu=E2=80=99
>=20
> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the =
difference between translating and encoding. If you try to take the =
closest words in one language to the closest words in another language =
and tie them together with the closest grammatical form that you can =
find in the second language, then you have encoded one message into =
another language.
>=20
> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original =
statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original =
statement using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to =
you in the second language, then you have a chance of translating the =
original message.
>=20
> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying =
to translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to =
understand what you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my =
attempt at translation:
>=20
> Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj =
tIchaghchugh vaj SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.
>=20
> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!
>=20
> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that =
were contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the =
statements. I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it =
explicit in order to better convey the expressions.
>=20
> Let me know if you approve.
>=20
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com =
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > A moment of clarity
> >
> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest =
of the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as =
myself. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced =
klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to =
digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following =
happened.
> >
> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king =
leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender =
his arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get =
them" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
> >
> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in =
klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure =
out the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon =
the "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* =
right.
> >
> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things =
clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my =
way in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything =
became clearer.
> >
> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this =
post.
> >
> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian =
messenger,is "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one =
who doesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will =
*feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In =
fact,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's =
messenger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
> >
> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak =
today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which =
in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the =
original phrase did.
> >
> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find =
all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way =
that modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an =
understatement) feeling of the original phrase.
> >
> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
> >
> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of =
"molon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot =
translate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand =
that klingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling =
?
> >
> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be =
able to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that =
any other language has to say. things don't work that way.
> >
> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has =
its beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible =
inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of =
"deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact =
that languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be =
different,the same way that individual people are always different =
compared to each other.
> >
> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always =
echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have =
read him in the original klingon.."
> >
> > be that as it may..
> >
> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
> >
> > cpt qunnoQ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Advice to anyone interested in becoming any =
kind of grammarian on this list: It helps to not be bothered by having =
others point out your errors. It took me years to learn this. This is a =
place where all your errors will come to light. Even ones that aren=E2=80=99=
t errors, but merely differences of opinion.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But in this case, yes, it was an error. =
It should have been {Separtanganpu=E2=80=99}.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And yes, I changed it because Klingons =
never initiate syllables with a consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as =
a student of Klingon, when you say {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT =
pronounced =E2=80=9Cka-plaa=E2=80=9D. The first syllable is {Qap}, not =
{Qa} and the second syllable is {la=E2=80=99}, not =E2=80=9Cplaaaaah=E2=80=
=9D. Most actors in the movies mispronounce it.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <<a =
href=3D"mailto:karenalessio@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">karenalessio@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought =
"-ngan"was the ending for inhabitants of a place.<br class=3D"">
I'm curious, still a beginner myself.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">> Let me =
know if you approve.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>it is a =
wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the defiance =
of the original phrase.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>the beauty of =
the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple as can =
be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I =
believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the =
culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant =
words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close =
to Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly =
for war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 =
people stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to =
hand combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>> Separtanpu=E2=80=99<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} =
?<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The issue I think you =
are struggling with is the crux of the difference between translating =
and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in one language to =
the closest words in another language and tie them together with the =
closest grammatical form that you can find in the second language, then =
you have encoded one message into another language.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original =
statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original =
statement using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to =
you in the second language, then you have a chance of translating the =
original message.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying =
to translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to =
understand what you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my =
attempt at translation:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj =
tIchaghchugh vaj SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that =
were contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the =
statements. I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it =
explicit in order to better convey the expressions.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Let me know if you approve.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
pItlh<br class=3D"">
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
> On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> A moment of clarity<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest =
of the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as =
myself. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced =
klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to =
digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following =
happened.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king =
leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender =
his arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get =
them" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.<br =
class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in =
klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure =
out the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon =
the "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* =
right.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things =
clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my =
way in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything =
became clearer.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> but first let me write some details,which are essential to this =
post.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian =
messenger,is "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one =
who doesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will =
*feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In =
fact,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's =
messenger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes =
face..<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak =
today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which =
in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the =
original phrase did.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find =
all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way =
that modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an =
understatement) feeling of the original phrase.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> thinking all this,i asked myself..<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of =
"molon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot =
translate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand =
that klingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling =
?<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be =
able to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that =
any other language has to say. things don't work that way.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has =
its beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible =
inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of =
"deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact =
that languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be =
different,the same way that individual people are always different =
compared to each other.<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always =
echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have =
read him in the original klingon.."<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> be that as it may..<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br class=3D"">
> ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> cpt qunnoQ<br class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">> =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
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<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" =
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<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
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class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
<br class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
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class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
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