[102158] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Tue Nov 10 11:44:43 2015
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 02:44:25 +1000
In-Reply-To: <CALPi+eSVNZ3gcZWgy+LRmvGBEW=75eLUXW-p+vYtgmqp96KsRA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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ghItlhpu' qurgh=2C jatlhpu':
> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great=2C is it reall=
y
> enough to warrant a new BG?=20
jangpu' Quvar=2C jatlh:
> Yes. I would say it is=2C even with very few beginners=2C there should be
> someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down=2C even
> with only one newbie in one month=2C there should be someone to say
> hello. What can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
Agreed. Even among prior BGs=2C not all have had the same amount of experie=
nce. I don't think there's any possibility of standardisation of the positi=
on and if helping three or four people over the year (though that usually a=
dds up to a great deal more than that in terms of individual questions answ=
ered and discussed) is what happens=2C that's what happens. That's another =
reason why flexibility in the length of the BG's term is rather important.
jang je qurgh=2C jatlh:
> True=2C but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after
> helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped
> way more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon"
> group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload=2C then
> that workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
A very fair point. The question is=2C I suppose=2C what is the best way of =
going about it? Would we have a BG for each forum? One for tlhIngan-Hol=2C =
one for Facebook=2C one for Google+=2C and so forth? Again=2C standardisati=
on of the position even from one BG to the next is virtually impossible bec=
ause of the fluctuating nature of group participation=2C so I don't think w=
e need to be too tied up in how equal the workload is across the various fo=
ra.
taH:
> I also think that multiple different descriptions of the same thing
> is very helpful for a student=2C as it gives them multiple view-points
> to look from.
True=2C but remember that once the BG has had their say=2C it's still open =
slather for anyone else. The BG is the right of first reply=2C not the righ=
t of only reply. So the student can always get those multiple viewpoints=3B=
it's just coming in a slightly different way and regulated to an extent by=
the existence of the BG.
taH:
> We also have enough people that each one of the four beginners
> that have recently raised their hands could get their own=2C personal=2C
> BG. Why dump all the work on one person?
With all due respect=2C you're arguing past yourself with this point. You s=
aid just before that there's not enough beginners to justify a BG's workloa=
d=2C but here you argue that one person isn't enough to take on the workloa=
d by suggesting it's "dumping" the workload on them. It can't swing both wa=
ys.
taH:
> If the goal is to help people learn=2C then giving them one-on-one
> service seems like it would be them most efficient system.
I'm not against the idea of one-on-one service=2C but does it need to be fr=
om both directions? That's part of the BG's role=2C really: to provide gram=
matical explanation on demand to individual learners. It's one-on-one from =
the student's point of view=2C but not from the BG's=2C and I don't think t=
hat's a problem. It's also community-building in that regard: the beginners=
get to know each other and the BG from seeing other KLBC messages going th=
rough=2C and we all get to see who these new people are that are joining us=
. Conversely=2C if everyone's got their own separate Grammarian to email wh=
en they need to - a buddy system of sorts? - that'd have a tendency to isol=
ate learners even more=2C which is a big enough problem as it is in the Kli=
ngon community.
The other thing is that=2C several though we Grammarians may be=2C we've go=
t lives too and can't always dedicate that kind of time. I basically go ema=
il dead for two to three months of the year=2C and also face some mental he=
alth problems that mean I may drop out of contact with little notice=2C and=
so I'm not really in a position to take on a mentoring role right now. Oth=
ers have their own things going on. The thing about the BG is that it's onl=
y one person who has to make the commitment=2C and there's a little more le=
eway in terms of what the skill requirement is.
taH:
> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about
> mailing lists: "Wow=2C a mailing list - makes me feel like using
> Windows 95 or something!"
To be frank=2C I'm pretty done with the "mailing lists are antiquated" argu=
ments. Antiquated or not=2C this remains an important framework of communic=
ation between Klingon speakers at all levels. Therefore=2C there should be =
teaching and learning done within this framework. They can be done elsewher=
e too=2C through other platforms like Facebook=2C and I'm all for that (I'm=
a member of the Facebook groups too=2C though not so active over there). B=
ut it's this list that's on my mind right now=2C because I'm a participant =
in it (not as active as I used to be=2C but still)=2C and beginners are par=
ticipants in it=2C and as an ex-BG and ex-beginner myself=2C I want those b=
eginners to feel at home right where they are=2C and not feel like they hav=
e to go elsewhere to get a strong education in Klingon.
Now I really feel like a curmudgeon. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'. I gu=
ess I just have a real soft spot for the role of BG. To me it was a stupend=
ous honour being asked to serve and to do a formally-structured part to act=
ively improve the lot of our language - to be honest=2C I'm nearly as proud=
of being able to use the title {'utlh} as I am the title "Dr.". But apart =
from that=2C my own Klingon improved more in that year than any other three=
years of my learning. I want others on this list to have the opportunity t=
oo=2C and I know several of the other Grammarians feel the same way. If peo=
ple are keen on establishing such structures (or similar=2C like the idea o=
f having one-on-one mentoring or buddying) on the Facebook and Google+ grou=
ps=2C that's wonderful and can only be of benefit to the Klingon community =
at large. But for my part=2C I'm afraid I don't have the psychological ener=
gy to establish that for three separate fora (let alone putting in the work=
to establish something new like a one-on-one system)=2C and this is the on=
e I'm focusing on doing something about=2C for better or for worse.
QeS 'utlh
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>ghItlhpu' qurgh=2C jatlhpu':<br>=
>=3B in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great=2C is it =
really<br>>=3B enough to warrant a new BG? <br><br>jangpu' Quvar=2C jatlh=
:<br>>=3B Yes. I would say it is=2C even with very few beginners=2C there=
should be<br>>=3B someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic sl=
ows down=2C even<br>>=3B with only one newbie in one month=2C there shoul=
d be someone to say<br>>=3B hello. What can happen? A workless BG will no=
t starve to death.<br><br>Agreed. Even among prior BGs=2C not all have had =
the same amount of experience. I don't think there's any possibility of sta=
ndardisation of the position and if helping three or four people over the y=
ear (though that usually adds up to a great deal more than that in terms of=
individual questions answered and discussed) is what happens=2C that's wha=
t happens. That's another reason why flexibility in the length of the BG's =
term is rather important.<br><br>jang je qurgh=2C jatlh:<br>>=3B True=2C =
but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after<br>>=3B he=
lping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped<br>>=
=3B way more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon"=
<br>>=3B group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload=
=2C then<br>>=3B that workload needs to be equal for each participant in =
my opinion.<br><br>A very fair point. The question is=2C I suppose=2C what =
is the best way of going about it? Would we have a BG for each forum? One f=
or tlhIngan-Hol=2C one for Facebook=2C one for Google+=2C and so forth? Aga=
in=2C standardisation of the position even from one BG to the next is virtu=
ally impossible because of the fluctuating nature of group participation=2C=
so I don't think we need to be too tied up in how equal the workload is ac=
ross the various fora.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B I also think that multiple dif=
ferent descriptions of the same thing<br>>=3B is very helpful for a stude=
nt=2C as it gives them multiple view-points<br>>=3B to look from.<br><br>=
True=2C but remember that once the BG has had their say=2C it's still open =
slather for anyone else. The BG is the right of first reply=2C not the righ=
t of only reply. So the student can always get those multiple viewpoints=3B=
it's just coming in a slightly different way and regulated to an extent by=
the existence of the BG.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B We also have enough people =
that each one of the four beginners<br>>=3B that have recently raised the=
ir hands could get their own=2C personal=2C<br>>=3B BG. Why dump all the =
work on one person?<br><br>With all due respect=2C you're arguing past your=
self with this point. You said just before that there's not enough beginner=
s to justify a BG's workload=2C but here you argue that one person isn't en=
ough to take on the workload by suggesting it's "dumping" the workload on t=
hem. It can't swing both ways.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B If the goal is to help=
people learn=2C then giving them one-on-one<br>>=3B service seems like i=
t would be them most efficient system.<br><br>I'm not against the idea of o=
ne-on-one service=2C but does it need to be from both directions? That's pa=
rt of the BG's role=2C really: to provide grammatical explanation on demand=
to individual learners. It's one-on-one from the student's point of view=
=2C but not from the BG's=2C and I don't think that's a problem. It's also =
community-building in that regard: the beginners get to know each other and=
the BG from seeing other KLBC messages going through=2C and we all get to =
see who these new people are that are joining us. Conversely=2C if everyone=
's got their own separate Grammarian to email when they need to - a buddy s=
ystem of sorts? - that'd have a tendency to isolate learners even more=2C w=
hich is a big enough problem as it is in the Klingon community.<br><br>The =
other thing is that=2C several though we Grammarians may be=2C we've got li=
ves too and can't always dedicate that kind of time. I basically go email d=
ead for two to three months of the year=2C and also face some mental health=
problems that mean I may drop out of contact with little notice=2C and so =
I'm not really in a position to take on a mentoring role right now. Others =
have their own things going on. The thing about the BG is that it's only on=
e person who has to make the commitment=2C and there's a little more leeway=
in terms of what the skill requirement is.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B Here's wh=
at a new student looking to learn Klingon said about<br>>=3B mailing list=
s: "Wow=2C a mailing list - makes me feel like using<br>>=3B Windows 95 o=
r =3B something!"<br><br>To be frank=2C I'm pretty done with the "maili=
ng lists are antiquated" arguments. Antiquated or not=2C this remains an im=
portant framework of communication between Klingon speakers at all levels. =
Therefore=2C there should be teaching and learning done within this framewo=
rk. They can be done elsewhere too=2C through other platforms like Facebook=
=2C and I'm all for that (I'm a member of the Facebook groups too=2C though=
not so active over there). But it's this list that's on my mind right now=
=2C because I'm a participant in it (not as active as I used to be=2C but s=
till)=2C and beginners are participants in it=2C and as an ex-BG and ex-beg=
inner myself=2C I want those beginners to feel at home right where they are=
=2C and not feel like they have to go elsewhere to get a strong education i=
n Klingon.<br><br>Now I really feel like a curmudgeon. DopDaq qul yIchenmoH=
QobDI' ghu'. I guess I just have a real soft spot for the role of BG. To m=
e it was a stupendous honour being asked to serve and to do a formally-stru=
ctured part to actively improve the lot of our language - to be honest=2C I=
'm nearly as proud of being able to use the title {'utlh} as I am the title=
"Dr.". But apart from that=2C my own Klingon improved more in that year th=
an any other three years of my learning. I want others on this list to have=
the opportunity too=2C and I know several of the other Grammarians feel th=
e same way. If people are keen on establishing such structures (or similar=
=2C like the idea of having one-on-one mentoring or buddying) on the Facebo=
ok and Google+ groups=2C that's wonderful and can only be of benefit to the=
Klingon community at large. But for my part=2C I'm afraid I don't have the=
psychological energy to establish that for three separate fora (let alone =
putting in the work to establish something new like a one-on-one system)=2C=
and this is the one I'm focusing on doing something about=2C for better or=
for worse.<br><br>QeS 'utlh<br> </div></body>
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