[102140] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Concerning the purpose clauses
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Nov 10 09:38:06 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 09:37:48 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJXLwsSK7RGZhU6g=BTx+GWr9FagWC4yCWXi3sb_hiOrg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I=E2=80=99m not sure if you are struggling with a spell checker (as I =
often do), or if you are not yet fully familiar with the Klingon =
alphabet, so capitalization errors don=E2=80=99t pop out at you yet. =
Writing more will help with that.
Comments below:
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:46 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> ...
> ..anyway,because i still have trouble assimilating the {-meH}, i would =
like to write some sentences so that through the corrections (which =
hopefully will follow) i will finally come to understand.
>=20
> we painted the targh in yellow paint in order to see it
> targh wIleghmeH ghah rItlh SuD wIngoH
Your purpose clause is fine. Remember {ghaH}. There is no lowercase =
=E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D in Klingon. It appears only as part of the romanized =
ligatures {ch, gh, tlh}. {ghaH rItlh SuD wIngoH} has good words in it. =
I=E2=80=99m just not sure they stick together well to form a sentence. =
We have a pronoun followed by a noun, a verb likely used adjectivally, =
and a main verb. =E2=80=9CWe finger-paint it=E2=80=9D is clear. =
=E2=80=9CYellow pigment=E2=80=9D is clear. Unless the targh can talk, =
{ghaH} is not the right pronoun, but even if you used the right pronoun, =
this wouldn=E2=80=99t really be well-formed grammar.
I=E2=80=99d suggest {wISuDmoH}. =E2=80=9CWe caused it to be yellow.=E2=80=9D=
In this case, it=E2=80=99s not so important that you used pigment or =
that you painted it. If these things are important, then you might use =
multiple sentences:
targh wIleghmoHmeH wISuDmoH. wISuDmoHmeH rItlh wIlo=E2=80=99. wIngoH.
"We caused the targh to be yellow in order to see it. We used pigment. =
We finger-painted it."
You could go even a step further to be clear about your meaning:
not targhmaj wIchIl wIneH. Qu=E2=80=99vam wIngeDmoHmeH targh wISuDmoH. =
wISuDmoHmeH rItlh wIlo=E2=80=99. WIngoH.
=E2=80=9CWe never want to lose our targh. In order to make this task =
easy, we made the targh yellow. We used pigment to make it yellow. We =
fingerpainted it."
> i tickled my dog to anger it
> Ha'DIbaH vIQeHmeH ghah vIqotlh
You came really close here. You forgot {-moH}. You don=E2=80=99t be =
angry the dog. You cause the dog to be angry. And you have a talking =
dog. {=E2=80=98oH}, not {ghaH}.
> they destroyed the vessel to anger the commander
> la' luQeHmeH DuJ luQaw=E2=80=99
Again, they did not be angry the commander. They caused the commander to =
be angry. {-moH}. And the Klingon {j} is never uppercase.
> i gave the commander food to get a shore leave
> leSpoH vISuqmeH Soj la=E2=80=99 vInob
You are trying to take the prefix shortcut a step farther than it can =
go. In this case, {Soj} and {la=E2=80=99} are both third person =
entities. The shortcut only works if the prefix indicates an indirect =
object that is not of the same person as the direct object. Typically, =
the direct object is an explicit third person noun, while the prefix =
indicates first and second person for the subject and indirect object. =
In your example, there=E2=80=99s no grammatical way to know which is the =
direct object and which is the indirect object.
So:
leSpoH vISuqmeH la=E2=80=99vaD Soj vInob.
Now, the indirect object is clear. The commander is the beneficiary of =
the act of giving food.
This is the normal way to indicate an indirect object; the original and =
older method. Later, we acquired the ability to indicate a first or =
second person indirect object with the =E2=80=9Cprefix shortcut=E2=80=9D, =
leaving the direct object as an explicit noun and the indirect object =
indicated by the verb prefix. If both the direct and indirect objects =
are explicit third person nouns, there is no available prefix shortcut.
> she cloaked her vessel to avoid me
> mujunmeH DujDaj So=E2=80=99
Perfect.
> he made his bed in order to sleep
> QongmeH QongDaqDaj chenmoH
Because of the unusual noun for =E2=80=9Cbed=E2=80=9D, this sentence =
looks stranger than it is. It=E2=80=99s well-formed.
> you took away my shoes in order to delay me
> chomImmeH waqmeywIj Dange=E2=80=99
If someone has their issues of HolQeD handy, I have a note in my =
dictionary about volume 8, number 4, page 11 relating to the verb {mIm}. =
I apparently interpreted that to mean the verb did not take an object. =
Until I can read that passage, however, I can=E2=80=99t see a reason to =
correct this one.
> he repaired his vessel for the purpose of attacking the ferengi
> verenganpu' HIvmeH DujDaj tI=E2=80=99
So, in English, is the term =E2=80=9Cthe ferengi=E2=80=9D singular or =
plural? Aside from that, this is fine.
> they skinned the targh in order to make clothes
> Sutmey chenmoHmeH targh luSurgh
Good. Nice detail on the use of {lu-} on the second verb and not the =
first. Almost got me on that one. It=E2=80=99s the most commonly bungled =
prefix.
> i gave the female commander vegetation to go on a date
> poH vIjaHmeH tI be' la=E2=80=99 vInob
You were doing so well=E2=80=A6
In English =E2=80=9Cgo on a date=E2=80=9D is an idiom. We have no reason =
to believe that a Klingon would have a clue about your meaning when you =
say what they would read as something like =E2=80=9CIn order that I move =
to or along a period of time=E2=80=9D.
I=E2=80=99m not sure that {be=E2=80=99 la=E2=80=99} would be interpreted =
as a female commander. To my eye, it looks more like a woman=E2=80=99s =
commander, or the commander of a woman. In other words, there=E2=80=99s =
a woman, and she has a commander, and you are saying something about =
that commander.
Add that the woman appears to belong to vegetation. Commander of the =
woman of the vegetation. You appear to be giving the commander of the =
woman of the vegetation.
be=E2=80=99 ghaH la=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99. matlhejchuqmeH =
be=E2=80=99vamvaD tI vInob.=20
This leaves as pretty much a mystery why giving her vegetation should =
serve the goal of accompanying each other, but hey, it conveys something =
closer to your original statement. I=E2=80=99m sure there are better =
expressions for this, but this is what I can come up with for the =
moment.
>=20
> cpt qunnoQ
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Will Martin =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Thanks that helps. Also, I withdraw my =E2=80=9Cproblem=E2=80=9D with =
{vaj}, since it=E2=80=99s not a conjunction. The other clause is =
dependent. It=E2=80=99s just an adverbial.
>=20
> I wish I had the time and/or wisdom to write with less noise and more =
signal.
>=20
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Nov 9, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net =
<mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net>> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Will Martin =
<lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Okay, there=E2=80=99s a verb {yay=E2=80=99} that doesn=E2=80=99t =
seem appropriate here, so I=E2=80=99m not
>>> suspecting a misspelling by omitting the glottal stop, and there=E2=80=
=99s a noun
>>> {yay}, which can=E2=80=99t take a verb suffix {-meH}, so SOMEBODY =
either made a
>>> mistake here, or there=E2=80=99s canon vocabulary I haven=E2=80=99t =
found yet.
>>=20
>> Without access to my copy of the text, I'm only guessing, but I think
>> the verb should be {yaj}.
>>=20
>> -- ghunchu'wI'
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure if you are struggling =
with a spell checker (as I often do), or if you are not yet fully =
familiar with the Klingon alphabet, so capitalization errors don=E2=80=99t=
pop out at you yet. Writing more will help with that.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Comments below:</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:46 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">...<br class=3D"">..anyway,because =
i still have trouble assimilating the {-meH}, i would like to write some =
sentences so that through the corrections (which hopefully will follow) =
i will finally come to understand.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">we =
painted the targh in yellow paint in order to see it<br class=3D"">targh =
wIleghmeH ghah rItlh SuD wIngoH<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Your purpose clause is fine. Remember {ghaH}. =
There is no lowercase =E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D in Klingon. It appears only as =
part of the romanized ligatures {ch, gh, tlh}. {ghaH rItlh SuD wIngoH} =
has good words in it. I=E2=80=99m just not sure they stick together well =
to form a sentence. We have a pronoun followed by a noun, a verb likely =
used adjectivally, and a main verb. =E2=80=9CWe finger-paint it=E2=80=9D =
is clear. =E2=80=9CYellow pigment=E2=80=9D is clear. Unless the targh =
can talk, {ghaH} is not the right pronoun, but even if you used the =
right pronoun, this wouldn=E2=80=99t really be well-formed =
grammar.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99d suggest =
{wISuDmoH}. =E2=80=9CWe caused it to be yellow.=E2=80=9D In this case, =
it=E2=80=99s not so important that you used pigment or that you painted =
it. If these things are important, then you might use multiple =
sentences:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>targh wIleghmoHmeH =
wISuDmoH. wISuDmoHmeH rItlh wIlo=E2=80=99. wIngoH.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>"We caused the targh to be yellow in order to see =
it. We used pigment. We finger-painted it."</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You could go even a step further to be clear about =
your meaning:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>not targhmaj wIchIl =
wIneH. Qu=E2=80=99vam wIngeDmoHmeH targh wISuDmoH. wISuDmoHmeH rItlh =
wIlo=E2=80=99. WIngoH.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>=E2=80=9CWe =
never want to lose our targh. In order to make this task easy, we made =
the targh yellow. We used pigment to make it yellow. We fingerpainted =
it."</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">i =
tickled my dog to anger it<br class=3D"">Ha'DIbaH vIQeHmeH ghah =
vIqotlh<br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You came really close here. You forgot {-moH}. You =
don=E2=80=99t be angry the dog. You cause the dog to be angry. And you =
have a talking dog. {=E2=80=98oH}, not {ghaH}.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">they destroyed the vessel to =
anger the commander<br class=3D"">la' luQeHmeH DuJ =
luQaw=E2=80=99</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Again, they did not be angry the commander. They =
caused the commander to be angry. {-moH}. And the Klingon {j} is never =
uppercase.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">i gave the =
commander food to get a shore leave<br class=3D"">leSpoH vISuqmeH Soj =
la=E2=80=99 vInob<br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You are trying to take the prefix shortcut a step =
farther than it can go. In this case, {Soj} and {la=E2=80=99} are both =
third person entities. The shortcut only works if the prefix indicates =
an indirect object that is not of the same person as the direct object. =
Typically, the direct object is an explicit third person noun, while the =
prefix indicates first and second person for the subject and indirect =
object. In your example, there=E2=80=99s no grammatical way to know =
which is the direct object and which is the indirect =
object.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>leSpoH vISuqmeH la=E2=80=99vaD Soj =
vInob.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Now, the indirect object is =
clear. The commander is the beneficiary of the act of giving =
food.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This is the normal way to =
indicate an indirect object; the original and older method. Later, we =
acquired the ability to indicate a first or second person indirect =
object with the =E2=80=9Cprefix shortcut=E2=80=9D, leaving the direct =
object as an explicit noun and the indirect object indicated by the verb =
prefix. If both the direct and indirect objects are explicit third =
person nouns, there is no available prefix shortcut.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">she cloaked her vessel to avoid =
me<br class=3D"">mujunmeH DujDaj =
So=E2=80=99</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Perfect.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">he made his bed in order to sleep<br class=3D"">QongmeH =
QongDaqDaj chenmoH<br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Because of the unusual noun for =E2=80=9Cbed=E2=80=9D=
, this sentence looks stranger than it is. It=E2=80=99s =
well-formed.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">you took away my =
shoes in order to delay me<br class=3D"">chomImmeH waqmeywIj =
Dange=E2=80=99</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If someone has their issues of HolQeD handy, I =
have a note in my dictionary about volume 8, number 4, page 11 relating =
to the verb {mIm}. I apparently interpreted that to mean the verb did =
not take an object. Until I can read that passage, however, I can=E2=80=99=
t see a reason to correct this one.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">he repaired his vessel for the purpose of attacking the =
ferengi<br class=3D"">verenganpu' HIvmeH DujDaj =
tI=E2=80=99</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So, in English, is the term =E2=80=9Cthe =
ferengi=E2=80=9D singular or plural? Aside from that, this is =
fine.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">they skinned the =
targh in order to make clothes<br class=3D"">Sutmey chenmoHmeH targh =
luSurgh<br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Good. Nice detail on the use of {lu-} on the =
second verb and not the first. Almost got me on that one. It=E2=80=99s =
the most commonly bungled prefix.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">i gave the female commander vegetation to go on a date<br =
class=3D"">poH vIjaHmeH tI be' la=E2=80=99 vInob<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You were doing so well=E2=80=A6</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In English =E2=80=9Cgo on a date=E2=80=9D is an =
idiom. We have no reason to believe that a Klingon would have a clue =
about your meaning when you say what they would read as something like =
=E2=80=9CIn order that I move to or along a period of =
time=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not sure =
that {be=E2=80=99 la=E2=80=99} would be interpreted as a female =
commander. To my eye, it looks more like a woman=E2=80=99s commander, or =
the commander of a woman. In other words, there=E2=80=99s a woman, and =
she has a commander, and you are saying something about that =
commander.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Add that the woman =
appears to belong to vegetation. Commander of the woman of the =
vegetation. You appear to be giving the commander of the woman of the =
vegetation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>be=E2=80=99 ghaH =
la=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99. matlhejchuqmeH be=E2=80=99vamvaD tI =
vInob. </div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This leaves as pretty =
much a mystery why giving her vegetation should serve the goal of =
accompanying each other, but hey, it conveys something closer to your =
original statement. I=E2=80=99m sure there are better expressions for =
this, but this is what I can come up with for the moment.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>cpt =
qunnoQ<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Will Martin <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thanks that =
helps. Also, I withdraw my =E2=80=9Cproblem=E2=80=9D with {vaj}, since =
it=E2=80=99s not a conjunction. The other clause is dependent. It=E2=80=99=
s just an adverbial.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I wish I had the time and/or wisdom to write with less noise =
and more signal.</div><span class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"">
</div>
<br class=3D""></span><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
9, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Alan Anderson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">qunchuy@alcaco.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Will Martin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Okay, there=E2=80=99s a =
verb {yay=E2=80=99} that doesn=E2=80=99t seem appropriate here, so I=E2=80=
=99m not<br class=3D"">suspecting a misspelling by omitting the glottal =
stop, and there=E2=80=99s a noun<br class=3D"">{yay}, which can=E2=80=99t =
take a verb suffix {-meH}, so SOMEBODY either made a<br class=3D"">mistake=
here, or there=E2=80=99s canon vocabulary I haven=E2=80=99t found =
yet.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Without access to my copy =
of the text, I'm only guessing, but I think<br class=3D"">the verb =
should be {yaj}.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- ghunchu'wI'<br =
class=3D""><br =
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