[101822] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Piraha
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 2 11:56:13 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:55:58 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJSkYqg2sB=T+Pq-a6-kMzOrxQNk26TULoDFjGRNT1YbA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Oh, and you are totally right that {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} sort of =
means =E2=80=9CMay they keep fighting with honor.=E2=80=9D The reason =
I=E2=80=99m a little squeamish on this is that the original follows =
NORMAL Klingon grammar and puts {-jaj} on the verb, but when we were =
introduced to {-jaj}, due to a likely blunder on Okrand=E2=80=99s part, =
sentences built on verbs with {-jaj} added have an exceptional word =
order, placing all the nouns before the verb, so technically {chaH} is =
misplaced.
I think consensus is sort of kinda pushing for it being okay to use =
normal word order with {-jaj}, with a vague, wittering explanation about =
the difference between ancient, oft-repeated blessings vs. modern =
expressions of wishfulness, but I=E2=80=99m not sure we ever got The =
Word from The Man on this one. Also, though I know that the traditional =
blessing using {-jaj} puts the subject before the verb, I=E2=80=99m less =
sure where a direct object would go (before or after the subject).
Also, note that I=E2=80=99m battling with a stupid spell-checker that =
keeps changing {qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} to either =E2=80=9Ccep=E2=80=99a=E2=
=80=99=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ceep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D, and {batlh} =
becomes =E2=80=9Cbath=E2=80=9D. So, while spelling has never really been =
my strong suit, when writing in Klingon, the computer is at fault more =
often than I am.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 11:04 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"
>=20
> i'm sorry to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just =
saw,translates to <<due to,because of>>.=20
> why is then the translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon =
he dies because of honor>> ?
>=20
>=20
> > {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"
>=20
> {reH} always
> {batlh} honor
> {Suv} to fight
> {-taH} continuous
> {-jaj} may
> {chaH} they
>=20
> why <<they always fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting =
with honor>> ?
>=20
> qunnoQ HoD
>=20
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de =
<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
> I'm not sure what the initial question was, but these examples do not =
show a real answer, in my opinion. All of the multiple adverbials are =
actually time stamps plus adverb, so not really "TWO" adverbs.
> The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:
>=20
> {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}
> "soon he dies with honor"
>=20
> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}
> "they always fight with honor"
>=20
> I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I =
see more as a conjunction:
>=20
> > Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99
> vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99
> cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99
>=20
> Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Lieven L. Litaer
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> Grammarian of the KLI
> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher =
<http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher>
> http://www.klingonwiki.net <http://www.klingonwiki.net/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Oh, and you are totally right that {reH batlh =
SuvtaHjaj chaH} sort of means =E2=80=9CMay they keep fighting with =
honor.=E2=80=9D The reason I=E2=80=99m a little squeamish on this is =
that the original follows NORMAL Klingon grammar and puts {-jaj} on the =
verb, but when we were introduced to {-jaj}, due to a likely blunder on =
Okrand=E2=80=99s part, sentences built on verbs with {-jaj} added have =
an exceptional word order, placing all the nouns before the verb, so =
technically {chaH} is misplaced.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think consensus is sort of kinda =
pushing for it being okay to use normal word order with {-jaj}, with a =
vague, wittering explanation about the difference between ancient, =
oft-repeated blessings vs. modern expressions of wishfulness, but I=E2=80=99=
m not sure we ever got The Word from The Man on this one. Also, though I =
know that the traditional blessing using {-jaj} puts the subject before =
the verb, I=E2=80=99m less sure where a direct object would go (before =
or after the subject).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, note that I=E2=80=99m battling with a stupid =
spell-checker that keeps changing {qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} to either =
=E2=80=9Ccep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ceep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=
=E2=80=9D, and {batlh} becomes =E2=80=9Cbath=E2=80=9D. So, while =
spelling has never really been my strong suit, when writing in Klingon, =
the computer is at fault more often than I am.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 2, 2015, at 11:04 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">> {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99=
} "soon he dies with honor"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>i'm sorry =
to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just saw,translates to =
<<due to,because of>>. <br class=3D""></div>why is then the =
translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon =
he dies because of honor>> ?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with =
honor"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>{reH} always<br =
class=3D""></div>{batlh} honor<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">{Suv} =
to fight<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">{-taH} continuous<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">{-jaj} may<br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">{chaH} they<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">why <<they always fight with honor>> and not =
<<may they keep fighting with honor>> ?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">qunnoQ HoD<br class=3D""></div></div><div=
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, =
Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote=
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">I'm not sure what the initial question was, but =
these examples do not show a real answer, in my opinion. All of the =
multiple adverbials are actually time stamps plus adverb, so not really =
"TWO" adverbs.<br class=3D"">
The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
{tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}<br class=3D"">
"soon he dies with honor"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
{reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}<br class=3D"">
"they always fight with honor"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I see =
more as a conjunction:<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
> Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99<br class=3D"">
cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??<div =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
Lieven L. Litaer<br class=3D"">
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br class=3D"">
Grammarian of the KLI<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br=
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br class=3D"">=
<br class=3D"">
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
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