[101821] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Piraha
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Mon Nov 2 11:55:54 2015
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E05C356D79@xm-mbx-04-prod>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 18:55:40 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> The lines are from the paq=E2=80=99batlh (PB), so we=E2=80=99re stuck wit=
h the somewhat
=E2=80=9Cpoetic/literary=E2=80=9D (vs. strictly literal) translations
ok, i understand now. but since this brings up something I would ask in
another post all by itself, I will seize the opportunity and ask the
question here..
I,am a beginner ; currently I'm studying TKD,and as soon as I finish I will
start reading -slowly- other publications (tao te ching,gilgamesh,carols
etc). In which of the Kliingon books published so far (aforementioned plus
hamlet and much ado) is the translation as strictly literal as possible ?
If i start reading books where the translation is poetic,then I will be
confused since I'm a beginner,and will not know whether I'm wrong or the
translation is given somewhat in a more free manner..
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> The lines are from the paq=E2=80=99batlh (PB), so we=E2=80=99re stuck wit=
h the somewhat
> =E2=80=9Cpoetic/literary=E2=80=9D (vs. strictly literal) translations:
>
>
>
> *loDnI'wI' bIQeHba' chaq batlh bIvangqa'laH *
>
> My brother, I see your anger, you might have a chance
>
> to make amends. PB
>
> *chaq tugh batlh Heghmo' 'ej chaq tugh charghmo'*
>
> For they may soon die with honor! For they may soon be victorious! PB
>
> *reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH*
>
> Let endless battle and honor await them! PB
>
> *jIlay'DI' reH batlh jIpabchugh Qapla'meywIj Hoch vIta'ta' 'e' DaHar'a'=
*
>
> Did you think that my word of honor would have carried me this far? PB
>
> Compare this last line with:
>
>
>
> *bIleghlaH jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta'*
>
> As you see, I have kept my word PB
>
> A couple more examples with two adverbials:
>
>
>
> *batlh naDev SuDab*
>
> Welcome to this place PB
>
>
>
> * batlh maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv*.
>
> *pa' reH maSuvtaHqu'.*
>
> Then we die with honor and join our fathers in the
>
> Black Fleet where we battle forever. (Anthem)
>
> OTOH see this earlier example from the Hallmark commercial where Okrand
> repeated the verb:
>
>
>
> * pIj maSuvpu'* *batlh maSuvpu' 'ej maQapbejta'*
>
> In our many battles, we have fought with honor
>
> and achieved VICTORY! (Hallmark)
>
> --
>
> Voragh
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* qunnoQ HoD [mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, November 02, 2015 10:04 AM
>
> > {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"
>
> i'm sorry to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just
> saw,translates to <<due to,because of>>.
>
> why is then the translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon he
> dies because of honor>> ?
>
>
> > {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"
>
> {reH} always
>
> {batlh} honor
>
> {Suv} to fight
>
> {-taH} continuous
>
> {-jaj} may
>
> {chaH} they
>
> why <<they always fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting wit=
h
> honor>> ?
>
> qunnoQ HoD
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what the initial question was, but these examples do not sho=
w
> a real answer, in my opinion. All of the multiple adverbials are actually
> time stamps plus adverb, so not really "TWO" adverbs.
> The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:
>
> {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}
> "soon he dies with honor"
>
> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}
> "they always fight with honor"
>
> I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I see
> more as a conjunction:
>
> > Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99
>
> vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99
> cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99
>
>
> Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??
>
>
>
> --
> Lieven L. Litaer
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> Grammarian of the KLI
> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
> http://www.klingonwiki.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>> <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(68,84,106)">The lines are from t=
he paq=E2=80=99batlh (PB), so we=E2=80=99re stuck with the somewhat =E2=80=
=9Cpoetic/literary=E2=80=9D (vs. strictly literal) translations<br><br></sp=
an></div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-s=
erif;color:rgb(68,84,106)">ok, i understand now. but since this brings up s=
omething I would ask in another post all by itself, I will seize the opport=
unity and ask the question here..<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:rgb(68,84,106)">I,a=
m a beginner ; currently I'm studying TKD,and as soon as I finish I wil=
l start reading -slowly- other publications (tao te ching,gilgamesh,carols =
etc).=C2=A0 In which of the Kliingon books published so far (aforementioned=
plus hamlet and much ado) is the translation as strictly literal as possib=
le ?<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:rgb(68,84,106)">If i start reading books where t=
he translation is poetic,then I will be confused since I'm a beginner,a=
nd will not know whether I'm wrong or the translation is given somewhat=
in a more free manner..<br></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Steven Boozer <span=
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" target=3D"_blank">=
sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a">The lines are from the paq=E2=80=99batl=
h (PB), so we=E2=80=99re stuck with the somewhat =E2=80=9Cpoetic/literary=
=E2=80=9D (vs. strictly literal) translations:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:red">loDnI=
'wI' bIQeHba' chaq batlh bIvangqa'laH
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">My brother, I=
see your anger, you might have a chance<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
=C2=A0to make amends.=C2=A0 PB<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:red">chaq =
tugh batlh Heghmo' 'ej chaq tugh charghmo'</span></b><b><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">For they may =
soon die with honor! For they may soon be victorious! PB<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:red">reH b=
atlh SuvtaHjaj chaH</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier N=
ew"">
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Let endless b=
attle and honor await them! PB<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:red">jIlay=
'DI' reH batlh jIpabchugh Qapla'meywIj Hoch vIta'ta' &#=
39;e' DaHar'a'</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Co=
urier New"">
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Did you think=
that my word of honor would have carried me this far? PB<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
Compare this last line with:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:red">bIleg=
hlaH jIlay'ta' 'ej batlh jIpabta'</span></b><b><span style=
=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">As you see, I=
have kept my word PB<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-s=
erif;color:#44546a"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a">A couple more examples with two adverbi=
als:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 </span=
></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New";color:#c00000">b=
atlh naDev SuDab</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New&quo=
t;">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">Welcome to th=
is place PB<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 batlh =
maHeghbej 'ej yo' qIjDaq vavpu'ma' DImuv</span></b><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Courier">.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<b>p=
a' reH maSuvtaHqu'.</b>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Then we die with honor and jo=
in our fathers in the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bla=
ck Fleet where we battle forever.<b>
</b>(Anthem)<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New""><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
OTOH see this earlier example from the Hallmark commercial where Okrand rep=
eated the verb:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:"Courier New"">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0 pIj ma=
Suvpu'</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">
<b>batlh maSuvpu' 'ej maQapbejta'</b> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
/span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">In our many battles, we have =
fought with honor<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">=C2=A0=C2=A0and =
achieved VICTORY! (Hallmark)<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-s=
erif;color:#44546a">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a">Voragh<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> qunnoQ HoD [mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 02, 2015 10:04 AM<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">> {tugh batlh Hegh=
mo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">i'm sorry to lead this discussion of track,but {=
-mo'} as i just saw,translates to <<due to,because of>>.
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">why is then the trans=
lation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon he dies=
because of honor>> ?<br>
<br>
<br>
> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{reH} always<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{batlh} honor<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{Suv} to fight<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{-taH} continuous<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">{-jaj} may<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">{chaH} they<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">why <<they alwa=
ys fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting with hon=
or>> ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">qunnoQ HoD<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Lieven <<a href=
=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure what the initial question was, but =
these examples do not show a real answer, in my opinion. All of the multipl=
e adverbials are actually time stamps plus adverb, so not really "TWO&=
quot; adverbs.<br>
The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:<br>
<br>
{tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}<br>
"soon he dies with honor"<br>
<br>
{reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}<br>
"they always fight with honor"<br>
<br>
I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I see=
more as a conjunction:<br>
<br>
> Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99<br>
cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" target=3D"_blank">http://www.klingon=
wiki.net</a><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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