[101560] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] {-be'} and {-qu'} with type 7 and 9 verb suffixes
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Tue Oct 27 23:00:28 2015
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
X-Google-Original-From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <011401d11127$211954c0$634bfe40$@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 23:00:10 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============9099001915565564999==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=Apple-Mail-856A6639-5356-4DB6-B896-B80A120C9231
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--Apple-Mail-856A6639-5356-4DB6-B896-B80A120C9231
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have no problem with rovers and Type 7, but Type 9 is, to my mind, gibberi=
sh with a rover. It describes the category of grammatical function of a verb=
. Negate it and you've removed the descriptor of the function of the verb in=
the sentence. Intensify it and you might as well intensify which letter of t=
he alphabet a word starts with, or intensify how many syllables it has. It d=
oesn't make sense.=20
You can visualize whatever you like, but it doesn't communicate anything.=20=
It's an idea probably worth running by Maltz, but don't be surprised if Okra=
nd gives you a puzzled look and starts muttering about {SIv} again.=20
Sent from my iPad
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
> On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t remember ever seeing this idea before. Your suggestions o=
f what they might mean are not implausible. It seems very odd to reverse the=
semantic meaning of a type-9, and we=E2=80=99ve never seen it in canon, but=
that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it could never happen. I=E2=80=99m constructing w=
ords and trying to feel what they might mean to me, and how else I might exp=
ress that meaning.
>=20
> ?Heghpa=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99 qama=E2=80=99 mejlaH =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99. =3D=
yIntaHvIS qama=E2=80=99 ratlhnIS =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99.
> ?choQaHchughbe=E2=80=99 jIHegh. =3D choQaHbe=E2=80=99chugh jIHegh =E2=80=98=
ej choQaHchugh jIHegh.
> ?DaneH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99? =3D DaneHbe=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=
=99? =E2=80=93 already a question we don=E2=80=99t know how to answer with H=
Ija=E2=80=99 or ghobe=E2=80=99, but if {DaneH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99}=
is valid I=E2=80=99ll bet the answer is the opposite of {DaneHbe=E2=80=99=E2=
=80=99a=E2=80=99}.
> ?malaDtaHvISbe=E2=80=99 =3D ... I can=E2=80=99t make it mean something dif=
ferent from malaDbe=E2=80=99taHvIS.
>=20
> Of yours, I think -chughqu=E2=80=99 for if and only if is the biggest stre=
tch. I=E2=80=99d get only _IF_ ... which now that I put it that way is mom=
speak (assuming your mom isn=E2=80=99t a mathematician) for iff.
>=20
> I imagine that if the idea were put to Maltz=E2=80=94who is known to be in=
Germany this week=E2=80=94that he=E2=80=99d wrinkle his nose and say that s=
uch things sounded like something a professor or a rental car contract might=
say, not normal conversational tools. That would explain why we=E2=80=99ve=
never seen such things in canon. ;-)
>=20
> Such constructions won=E2=80=99t mean anything to other Klingon speakers, b=
ut it=E2=80=99s one of the most interesting, =E2=80=9CWhat if Klingon worked=
this way?=E2=80=9D posts I=E2=80=99ve seen in a long time. You could write=
it up in more detail for submission to the reboot of HolQeD that we seem to=
be organizing in another thread.
> =20
> - Qov
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> From: Michael K=C3=BAnin [mailto:netzakh@yahoo.com]=20
> Sent: October 27, 2015 16:39
> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] {-be'} and {-qu'} with type 7 and 9 verb suffixes
> =20
> While the usage of these rovers with main verbs and with type 2 suffixes o=
r {-laH} is well attested, it occurred to me that nothing explicitly prevent=
s {-be'} and {-qu'} from being added to ANY verb suffix. If this is possible=
, this would create quite interesting constructions.
> =20
> For example:
> =20
> {-chughbe'} "not if" =3D "regardless of" ?
> {-chughqu'} "intensively if" =3D "if and only if" ?
> {-pa'be'} "not before" =3D "after" ?
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail-856A6639-5356-4DB6-B896-B80A120C9231
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I have no problem with rovers and Type=
7, but Type 9 is, to my mind, gibberish with a rover. It describes the cate=
gory of grammatical function of a verb. Negate it and you've removed the des=
criptor of the function of the verb in the sentence. Intensify it and you mi=
ght as well intensify which letter of the alphabet a word starts with, or in=
tensify how many syllables it has. It doesn't make sense. </div><div id=
=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">You can vis=
ualize whatever you like, but it doesn't communicate anything. </div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It's a=
n idea probably worth running by Maltz, but don't be surprised if Okrand giv=
es you a puzzled look and starts muttering about {SIv} again. <br><br><=
span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Sent from my iPad</=
span><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">lojmIt t=
I'wI' nuv</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:19 PM, Robyn Ste=
wart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>=
; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Con=
tent-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><meta name=3D"Generator" c=
ontent=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&qu=
ot;sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don=E2=80=99t remember ever seeing this=
idea before. Your suggestions of what they might mean are not implaus=
ible. It seems very odd to reverse the semantic meaning of a type-9, and we=E2=
=80=99ve never seen it in canon, but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean it could neve=
r happen. I=E2=80=99m constructing words and trying to feel what they might m=
ean to me, and how else I might express that meaning.<br><br>?Heghpa=E2=80=99=
be=E2=80=99 qama=E2=80=99 mejlaH =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99. =3D yIntaHvIS qama=E2=
=80=99 ratlhnIS =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99.<br>?choQaHchughbe=E2=80=99 jIHegh. =3D=
choQaHbe=E2=80=99chugh jIHegh =E2=80=98ej choQaHchugh jIHegh.<br>?DaneH=E2=80=
=99a=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99? =3D DaneHbe=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? =E2=80=93=
already a question we don=E2=80=99t know how to answer with HIja=E2=80=99 o=
r ghobe=E2=80=99, but if {DaneH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99} is valid I=E2=
=80=99ll bet the answer is the opposite of {DaneHbe=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=
=99}.<br>?malaDtaHvISbe=E2=80=99 =3D ... I can=E2=80=99t make it mean someth=
ing different from malaDbe=E2=80=99taHvIS.<br><br>Of yours, I think -chughqu=
=E2=80=99 for if and only if is the biggest stretch. I=E2=80=99d get o=
nly _<i>IF</i>_ ... which now that I put it that way is momspeak (assu=
ming your mom isn=E2=80=99t a mathematician) for iff.<br><br>I imagine that i=
f the idea were put to Maltz=E2=80=94who is known to be in Germany this week=
=E2=80=94that he=E2=80=99d wrinkle his nose and say that such things sounded=
like something a professor or a rental car contract might say, not normal c=
onversational tools. That would explain why we=E2=80=99ve never seen s=
uch things in canon. ;-)<br><br>Such constructions won=E2=80=99t mean anythi=
ng to other Klingon speakers, but it=E2=80=99s one of the most interesting, =E2=
=80=9CWhat if Klingon worked this way?=E2=80=9D posts I=E2=80=99ve seen in a=
long time. You could write it up in more detail for submission to the=
reboot of HolQeD that we seem to be organizing in another thread. <o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o=
:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">- Qov<br><br>=
<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:sol=
id #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","=
;sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Michael K=C3=BA=
nin [<a href=3D"mailto:netzakh@yahoo.com">mailto:netzakh@yahoo.com</a>] <br>=
<b>Sent:</b> October 27, 2015 16:39<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan=
-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] {-b=
e'} and {-qu'} with type 7 and 9 verb suffixes<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div id=3D"yiv709170852=
9"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_3502"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14459=
89149680_3501"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=
=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Whil=
e the usage of these rovers with main verbs and with type 2 suffixes or {-la=
H} is well attested, it occurred to me that nothing explicitly prevents {-be=
'} and {-qu'} from being added to ANY verb suffix. If this is possible,=
this would create quite interesting constructions.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_3672"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",&qu=
ot;sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D=
"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_3673"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background=
:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"=
;;color:black">For example:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0=
_1_1445989149680_3692"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_=
3693"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-=
family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">{-chughbe'} "=
not if" =3D "regardless of" ?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1445989149680_3694"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><=
span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:b=
lack">{-chughqu'} "intensively if" =3D "if and only if" ?<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_3695"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",&qu=
ot;sans-serif";color:black">{-pa'be'} "not before" =3D "after" ?<o:p></=
o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445989149680_3696"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verd=
ana","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org=
">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-h=
ol</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-856A6639-5356-4DB6-B896-B80A120C9231--
--===============9099001915565564999==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============9099001915565564999==--
