[101487] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] qaghwI' between consonants
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Sat Oct 24 10:57:14 2015
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>, "tlhingan-hol@kli.org"
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 14:56:55 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAMwO7AHsVfDYps92oWi_HoUub2_0Tuk=Np1v6bTAvgt_mMvJMw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> is there a list somewhere of consonant clusters
> allowed/disallowed in tlhingan phonology?
Not to the best of my knowledge; it's not based on any explicitly stated r=
ule, but rather on a number of observations:
1) There are no canonical examples of Klingon words/names beginning with a =
consonant cluster.
2) The consonant clusters rgh, y' and w' are frequently used at the end of =
syllables. Examples include {Dargh} ("tea"), {may'morgh} ("battle array") a=
nd Qaw' ("destroy").
3) The word {paq'batlh} is the only known example of a three-consonant clus=
ter (q'b) which does not begin with one of the above cases (rgh, y' or w').=
Marc Okrand has stated that this is an exception, due to the fact that the=
name of this book was coined in an ancestral form of tlhIngan Hol.
4) Non-Klingon names have been known to break the above rules. These includ=
e {jemS} ("James"), {qIrq} ("Kirk") and {pIqarD} ("Picard").
> how do I reply to threads in this mailing list? Hit "reply all"?
It might depend on your e-mail client, but that's usually how it works, yes=
.
________________________________
From: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 16:34
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] qaghwI' between consonants
I'm sort of new to this, is there a list somewhere of consonant clusters al=
lowed/disallowed in tlhingan phonology?
also, how do I reply to threads in this mailing list? Hit "reply all"? I'm =
feeling kind of newbie-ish right now. sorry.
thanks!
> and the apostrophe between most consonants just cannot be pronounced
that is exactly what i wanted to clarify ! i wondered whether the cluster c=
onsonant-qaghwI'-consonant can be pronounced ; thank you all for answering.
On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de<mailto:levinius@gm=
x.de>> wrote:
Am 24.10.2015 um 08:11 schrieb Robyn Stewart:
> 3.Names can take any form the user wants them to, including letters and l=
etter combinations that aren't in tlhIngan Hol.
First to make clear: Qov is one of the most experienced Klingon speakers I =
have ever met, so I have my greatest respect to her knowledge and grammatic=
al opinion. That's why it's not easy for me to contradict.
This is important for true beginners to understand this correctly:
Yes, names can be whatever they are. Of course there is no rule for names, =
and they may look what they look like.
But, on the other hand, it depends on the question asked: if you want to ma=
ke a name which follows correct tlhIngan Hol syllables, then you can NOT do=
what you want. The Klingon letters we use are some kind of pronunciation s=
ystem, and the apostrophe between most consonants just cannot be pronounced=
. I definitely DISCOMMEND any beginners to write words like {qun'noQ} or {Q=
It'vur} because they simply can NOT be pronounced. It's like writing englis=
h names like "Kpnolstkr" and "Apprlk" - it just makes no sense.
What you can do is what most authors do, writing "english" Klingon names as=
we know "K'mtor" or "K'Tinga", but that'sno tlhIngan Hol.
{paq'batlh} is really one of very few exceptions [please name any others], =
which is based on the incorrect spelling of the autors, and that's why okra=
nd has explained it as archaic klingon.
--
Lieven L. Litaer
aka Quvar valer 'utlh
Grammarian of the KLI
http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
http://www.klingonwiki.net
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
_______________________________________________
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Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<p>> is there a list somewhere of consonant clusters</p>
<p>> allowed/disallowed in tlhingan phonology?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> Not to the best of my knowledge; it's not based on any explicitly =
stated rule, but rather on a number of observations:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>1) There are no canonical examples of Klingon words/names beginning with=
a consonant cluster.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>2) The consonant clusters rgh, y' and w' are frequently used at the end =
of syllables. Examples include {Dargh} ("tea"), {may'morgh} (&quo=
t;battle array") and Qaw' ("destroy").</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>3) The word {paq'batlh} is the only known example of a three-consonant c=
luster (q'b) which does not begin with one of the above cases (rgh, y' or w=
'). Marc Okrand has stated that this is an exception, due to the fact that =
the name of this book was coined
in an ancestral form of tlhIngan Hol.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>4) Non-Klingon names have been known to break the above rules. These inc=
lude {jemS} ("James"), {qIrq} ("Kirk") and {pIqarD} (&q=
uot;Picard").<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>> how do I reply to threads in this mailing list? Hit "repl=
y all"?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It might depend on your e-mail client, but that's usually how it works, =
yes.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Karen Alessio <k=
arenalessio@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 24, 2015 16:34<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] qaghwI' between consonants</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I'm sort of new to this, is there a list somewhere of conson=
ant clusters allowed/disallowed in tlhingan phonology?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">also, how do I reply to threads in this mailing list? Hit &q=
uot;reply all"? I'm feeling kind of newbie-ish right now. sorry.<br>
thanks!</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quot<blockquote class=3D" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>> and the apostrophe between most consonants just cannot be pronoun=
ced<br>
<br>
</div>
that is exactly what i wanted to clarify ! i wondered whether the cluster c=
onsonant-qaghwI'-consonant can be pronounced ; thank you all for answering.=
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Lieven <span di=
r=3D"ltr">
<<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a=
>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
Am 24.10.2015 um 08:11 schrieb Robyn Stewart:<br>
> 3.Names can take any form the user wants them to, including letters an=
d letter combinations that aren’t in tlhIngan Hol.<br>
<br>
First to make clear: Qov is one of the most experienced Klingon speakers I =
have ever met, so I have my greatest respect to her knowledge and grammatic=
al opinion. That's why it's not easy for me to contradict.<br>
<br>
This is important for true beginners to understand this correctly:<br>
<br>
Yes, names can be whatever they are. Of course there is no rule for names, =
and they may look what they look like.<br>
<br>
But, on the other hand, it depends on the question asked: if you want to ma=
ke a name which follows correct tlhIngan Hol syllables, then you can NOT do=
what you want. The Klingon letters we use are some kind of pronunciation s=
ystem, and the apostrophe between
most consonants just cannot be pronounced. I definitely DISCOMMEND any beg=
inners to write words like {qun'noQ} or {QIt'vur} because they simply can N=
OT be pronounced. It's like writing english names like "Kpnolstkr"=
; and "Apprlk" - it just makes no sense.<br>
<br>
What you can do is what most authors do, writing "english" Klingo=
n names as we know "K'mtor" or "K'Tinga", but that'sno =
tlhIngan Hol.<br>
<br>
{paq'batlh} is really one of very few exceptions [please name any others], =
which is based on the incorrect spelling of the autors, and that's why okra=
nd has explained it as archaic klingon.<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.klingonwiki.net</a></font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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