[101420] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] qaghwI' (was Re: Klingon Word of the Day: veSDuj)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Mon Oct 19 03:22:13 2015
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:21:56 +1000
In-Reply-To: <5624324C.70006@trimboli.name>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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ghItlhpu' Anthony=2C jatlh:
> To me=2C the main unrealistic feature of pIqaD as we have it is that the
> glottal stop is represented by an apostrophe as in English and not by
> a substantial sized symbol.
jangpu' Qov=2C jatlh:
> I had the same disappointment=2C compounded by the fact that even the
> name distinguished it from other letters=2C but on reflection and discuss=
ion
> I became satisfied that the sound is separate enough that it makes sense.=
=20
I'm with Qov on this one - in fact=2C I think I was probably been one of th=
e ones to help convince her of it in the first place. Even on Earth=2C the =
glottal stop is often not quite as simple as "any other stop"=2C as SuStel =
puts it. There are many languages=2C like Hawaiian and Circassian=2C where =
the glottal stop does fall in smoothly with other stops from a phonological=
point of view. But in many other languages=2C the glottal stop is more com=
plicated=2C and forms a sort of class of its own. Though phonologically an =
unremarkable stop in Arabic=2C in the writing system it's also written with=
a diacritic (hamza) rather than a full-blown letter=2C since the letter al=
if on its own was also pressed into service as a mater lectionis for a long=
/a/ vowel. And in Danish=2C glottal stop is unwritten but is more supraseg=
mental=2C forming an important part of the interaction with the system of t=
one. Even in Klingon=2C it's the only consonant that attracts stress when a=
ppearing in the syllable coda=2C which shows that its phonology encroaches =
on the suprasegmental as well.
In 2012 Qov challenged us to "Find me a language with a native writing syst=
em and a phonemic glottal stop that treats the glottal stop differently fro=
m t and k and q and I'll be convinced." For me=2C the language that makes m=
e okay with qaghwI' as it is=2C both in its name and its depiction in pIqaD=
=2C is Classic Maya=2C and this is copypasta from my reply of 2012 in which=
I said as much:
jIH:
>Classic Maya might be such a language. Glottal stop is phonemic (though
>only rarely word-initially=3B there are no syllable characters in Maya
>dedicated to vowel-only syllables as distinct from glottal stop + vowel)
>but the characters for the glottal stop syllables - /'a 'e 'i 'o 'u/ -
>are often dropped from the ends of words where a glottal stop should
>appear:
>ka' "two" written /ka/=2C not /ka-'a/
>but
>ha' "this=2C that": /ha-'a/
>mo' "macaw": written /mo-'o/=2C or even /mo-'o-'o/
>ma' "not": written /ma-'a/ or /ma/
>and though there's not a distinction between final glottal stop and zero=
=2C
>the loss of final glottal stop-vowel characters does hide a phonemic
>distinction between /'/ and /h/=2C which is also often underspelled:
>chih "deer": written in full /chi-hi/ or underspelled /chi/
>chi' "a fermented drink": underspelled /chi/
>nah "great=2C large": underspelled /na/
>na' "lady": underspelled /na/
To this=2C I'll just note the further detail that the other Classic Maya st=
ops /p t k/ (and the glottalised /b' t' k'/) are never underspelled in this=
way.
In other words=2C the native Classic Maya writing system treats the glottal=
stop=2C alone among the stops=2C as relatively peripheral and in some inst=
ances functionally ignorable=2C and in a similar fashion to how the Klingon=
writing system does. For that reason=2C I can completely get how the origi=
nal Klingon writing system may have had no letter at all for the glottal st=
op (and particularly since we know now from the paq'batlh that many instanc=
es of qaghwI' - and particularly in the syllable coda - came from other con=
sonants in no' Hol)=2C and it may have been added relatively recently: perh=
aps at first as little more than a diacritic marker of the stress attractio=
n caused by glottal codas in modern Klingon (like the acute that marks irre=
gular stress in Spanish=2C maybe?) and only later being slightly elaborated=
into its own distinct letter so that glottal onsets=2C as well as glottal =
codas=2C could be marked orthographically.
(Yes=2C I know that in practice the form of the letter in pIqaD is basicall=
y informed by its form in roman typography. But within the game there are g=
ood solid explanations for it as well.)
QeS
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>ghItlhpu' Anthony=2C jatlh:<br>&=
gt=3B To me=2C the main unrealistic feature of pIqaD as we have it is that =
the<br>>=3B glottal stop is represented by an apostrophe as in English an=
d not by<br>>=3B a substantial sized symbol.<br><br>jangpu' Qov=2C jatlh:=
<br>>=3B I had the same disappointment=2C compounded by the fact that eve=
n the<br>>=3B name distinguished it from other letters=2C but on reflecti=
on and discussion<br>>=3B I became satisfied that the sound is separate e=
nough that it makes sense. <br><br>I'm with Qov on this one - in fact=2C I =
think I was probably been one of the ones to help convince her of it in the=
first place. Even on Earth=2C the glottal stop is often not quite as simpl=
e as "any other stop"=2C as SuStel puts it. There are many languages=2C lik=
e Hawaiian and Circassian=2C where the glottal stop does fall in smoothly w=
ith other stops from a phonological point of view. But in many other langua=
ges=2C the glottal stop is more complicated=2C and forms a sort of class of=
its own. Though phonologically an unremarkable stop in Arabic=2C in the wr=
iting system it's also written with a diacritic (hamza) rather than a full-=
blown letter=2C since the letter alif on its own was also pressed into serv=
ice as a mater lectionis for a long /a/ vowel. And in Danish=2C glottal sto=
p is unwritten but is more suprasegmental=2C forming an important part of t=
he interaction with the system of tone. Even in Klingon=2C it's the only co=
nsonant that attracts stress when appearing in the syllable coda=2C which s=
hows that its phonology encroaches on the suprasegmental as well.<br><br>In=
2012 Qov challenged us to "Find me a language with a native writing system=
and a phonemic glottal stop that treats the glottal stop differently from =
t and k and q and I'll be convinced." For me=2C the language that makes me =
okay with qaghwI' as it is=2C both in its name and its depiction in pIqaD=
=2C is Classic Maya=2C and this is copypasta from my reply of 2012 in which=
I said as much:<br><div><br>jIH:<br>>=3BClassic Maya might be such a lan=
guage. Glottal stop is phonemic (though<br>>=3Bonly rarely word-initially=
=3B there are no syllable characters in Maya<br>>=3Bdedicated to vowel-on=
ly syllables as distinct from glottal stop + vowel)<br>>=3Bbut the charac=
ters for the glottal stop syllables - /'a 'e 'i 'o 'u/ -<br>>=3Bare often=
dropped from the ends of words where a glottal stop should<br>>=3Bappear=
:<br>>=3Bka' "two" written /ka/=2C not /ka-'a/<br>>=3Bbut<br>>=3Bha' =
"this=2C that": /ha-'a/<br>>=3Bmo' "macaw": written /mo-'o/=2C or even /m=
o-'o-'o/<br>>=3Bma' "not": written /ma-'a/ or /ma/<br>>=3Band though th=
ere's not a distinction between final glottal stop and zero=2C<br>>=3Bthe=
loss of final glottal stop-vowel characters does hide a phonemic<br>>=3B=
distinction between /'/ and /h/=2C which is also often underspelled:<br>>=
=3Bchih "deer": written in full /chi-hi/ or underspelled /chi/<br>>=3Bchi=
' "a fermented drink": underspelled /chi/<br>>=3Bnah "great=2C large": un=
derspelled /na/<br>>=3Bna' "lady": underspelled /na/<br><br>To this=2C I'=
ll just note the further detail that the other Classic Maya stops /p t k/ (=
and the glottalised /b' t' k'/) are never underspelled in this way.<br><br>=
In other words=2C the native Classic Maya writing system treats the glottal=
stop=2C alone among the stops=2C as relatively peripheral and in some inst=
ances functionally ignorable=2C and in a similar fashion to how the Klingon=
writing system does. For that reason=2C I can completely get how the origi=
nal Klingon writing system may have had no letter at all for the glottal st=
op (and particularly since we know now from the paq'batlh that many instanc=
es of qaghwI' - and particularly in the syllable coda - came from other con=
sonants in no' Hol)=2C and it may have been added relatively recently: perh=
aps at first as little more than a diacritic marker of the stress attractio=
n caused by glottal codas in modern Klingon (like the acute that marks irre=
gular stress in Spanish=2C maybe?) and only later being slightly elaborated=
into its own distinct letter so that glottal onsets=2C as well as glottal =
codas=2C could be marked orthographically.<br><br>(Yes=2C I know that in pr=
actice the form of the letter in pIqaD is basically informed by its form in=
roman typography. But within the game there are good solid explanations fo=
r it as well.)<br><br>QeS<br></div> </div></body>
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