[101363] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (HoD qunnoQ)
Mon Oct 12 03:12:27 2015
In-Reply-To: <001201d1043c$b52f9b80$1f8ed280$@flyingstart.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:12:03 +0300
From: HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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since the last noun in the grouping is the thing being described,then maybe
i should say
*Human qam HaqwI' SoH --> (human,you are a foot surgeon) *(the comma
implied)
or,if there are commas in Klingon (are there ?) i could write
*Human,qam HaqwI' SoH --> (human,you are a foot surgeon)*
or if there are no commas in Klingon (please someone tell me if there are)
i could again say
*Human qam HaqwI' SoH *and right after i speak the word {Human} pause
briefly,then continuing to speak the rest of the phrase.
in the case all of the above are wrong,the only thing i could think of,is :
*Human SoH qam HaqwI'*
>> I will also send you a Klingon story confined to simpler grammatical
structures and basic vocabulary
thank you very much !
qunnoQ
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote=
:
> > does this mean that nouns are always (whenever they are stringed
> together) grouped in pairs ? i.e. the first two, then the next two etc ?
>
> ghobe=E2=80=99. No it doesn=E2=80=99t.
>
> Here are some groupings from canon sentences
>
> tlhIngan wo' Degh --> (Klingon Empire) symbol
>
>
> *tlhI=C2=ADngan qor=C2=ADDu=E2=80=99 pong --> a Klingon=E2=80=99s (family=
name)HoS Hal qeng=C2=ADwI=E2=80=99 naQ
> --> ((power source) carrier) stick)tlhI=C2=ADngan yo=E2=80=99 Suv=C2=ADwI=
=E2=80=99 --> (Klingon
> fleet) warrior*
>
> Please have another look at that e-mail with all the parentheses, and see
> I described that the nouns might be grouped in any way. You must use your
> knowledge of the world to decide which grouping is sensible for the
> sentence. I=E2=80=99m describing the language in little bits at a time f=
or you, so
> each is something you can learn, and after each e-mail you have a little
> more that you can add to the conversation, but the messages lojmIt tI=E2=
=80=99wI=E2=80=99
> nuv is sending regarding thinking about the language are no less
> important. It=E2=80=99s not a little code. It=E2=80=99s a language that =
means something
> and neither boQwI=E2=80=99 nor Bing will ever bring what you already have=
in your
> head to understanding it.
>
>
>
> >> tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Kli=
ngon's foot
> >> qam Hom =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's b=
one
> >> baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot
> >> tlhIngan baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (t=
his sounds
> a little weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.
>
> lugh! (right!) so unless someone were already talking about a Klingon
> Terminator or the like, you would probably lean towards its being a
> metallic Klingon foot. Maybe a prosthetic?
>
> > You are a human foot surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human SoH
>
> Hmm. The last noun in any grouping is the one that is the thing, with th=
e
> others being ones that describe it or each other. So you=E2=80=99re call=
ing this
> person some sort of human. Either they are a (qam HaqwI=E2=80=99) Human =
=E2=80=93 a
> foot-surgeon Human=E2=80=94or they are a qam (HaqwI=E2=80=99 Human)---a f=
oot=E2=80=99s
> surgeon-Human. I guess the person is a member of a group of humans who
> have been captured and made into slaves or some kind of exhibition, each
> individual designated by his or her role. The foot-surgeon Human makes
> sense there. I can=E2=80=99t even make up a story to make sense of a foo=
t=E2=80=99s
> surgeon-Human. So try that one again.
>
> Noun-noun constructions are, for some reason, often challenging for
> beginners. I think it may be because basic Klingon sentence order hasn=
=E2=80=99t
> solidified in their brains yet, so they are still imposing the order of
> their native language. Or they start to think of the modifying nouns as
> adjectives, and then ... but why would I need to tell you how to get
> confused when you can find your way there without trouble?
>
> > lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh what is {vIrI'} ? i can=
't find its meaning..
>
> > And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of
> language (real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that
> language,and not just try to replace words from his
> > native language to the one he's trying to learn. That is why i have
> bought every Klingon book i managed to find,hoping that as soon as i lear=
n
> the basics,i will start reading -even at a > very slow pace- in Klingon
> so as to get the <<feel>> of the Klingon.
>
> Ah good. You are taking his words to heart. I will also send you a Klingo=
n
> story confined to simpler grammatical structures and basic vocabulary.
>
> - Qov
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <
> lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers and lessons here, I ju=
st want
> to open your mind to principles that are mentioned in The Klingon
> Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people learning the langua=
ge.
>
>
>
> Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize
> that replacing English words with Klingon words and changing the word ord=
er
> is not always going to translate an English sentence into a Klingon
> sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to the word=
s
> in an English sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.
>
>
>
> In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now wri=
ting somewhat of
> an example of how a person speaking English can easily pack a lot more th=
an
> that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high schoo=
l, which is
> supposed to be the official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into =
a
> sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chelp=
er words=E2=80=9D,
> can pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just
> keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the
> original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sentence was supposed to=
have contained,
> much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed=
quite believably
> within the boundaries of the dream to be the secret of the Universe =E2=
=80=94 the
> answer to all questions =E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing t=
o do with
> the sentence I started writing to illustrate one of the differences betwe=
en
> Klingon grammar and English grammar.
>
>
>
> My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence than any
> self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one
> Klingon sentence.
>
>
>
> So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D ther=
e is no reason to
> not break that down into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Huma=
n jIH.}
>
>
>
> Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human=
qamDu=E2=80=99
> vIrI=E2=80=99.
>
>
>
> It makes for very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial
> challenge of packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure
> out from context what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expec=
t to hold
> a Klingon=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one thought into a sen=
tence. He
> might hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak lo=
ng, complex
> sentences to a Klingon.
>
>
>
> In TKD, Okrand also points out that in Klingon, it is much more common
> than in English to repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English w=
e
> tend to replace all but the first mention with pronouns. The point here i=
s
> that Klingon sentences tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t pa=
dding them
> all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the
> opportunity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or what you are
> talking about.
>
>
>
> Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to
> destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon
> clearly.
>
>
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
>
> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a spac=
e
> ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should
> have written it.
>
> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper
> book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ;
> why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?
>
> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH.
>
> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i writ=
e
> it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>
> qunnoQ
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>
> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
> >
> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surgeon
> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>
> maj!
>
> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>
> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used
> to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you t=
o
> do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence which
> follows that was very well done. majQa'!
>
> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !
>
> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a
> little mixed up.
>
> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the
> second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it i=
n
> some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun i=
s
> owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is mad=
e
> out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the first
> noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the point
> it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how w=
e
> do it in English, too and when you are putting two nouns together you can
> often (but not always) just put the English and Klingon in the same order
> (for possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those
> cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words
> and insert "of".
>
> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a
> "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by).
> {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>
> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the
> foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon
> of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space",=
a
> "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have instea=
d
> meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumption
> that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then you'=
re
> saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind. The
> descriptor goes first followed by the thing being described. So {logh Du=
j}
> is "space ship".
>
> nav paq jIH'a'?
>
>
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>since the last noun in the grouping is=
the thing being described,then maybe i should say <br><br></div><b>Human q=
am HaqwI' SoH --> (human,you are a foot surgeon) </b>(the comma impl=
ied)<br><b><br></b></div>or,if there are commas in Klingon (are there ?) i =
could write<br><br><b>Human,qam HaqwI' SoH --> (human,you are a foot=
surgeon)<br><br></b></div>or if there are no commas in Klingon (please som=
eone tell me if there are) i could again say <br><br><b>Human qam HaqwI'=
; SoH=C2=A0 </b>and right after i speak the word {Human} pause briefly,then=
continuing to speak the rest of the phrase.<br><br></div><div>in the case =
all of the above are wrong,the only thing i could think of,is :<br><br></di=
v><div><b>Human SoH qam HaqwI'<br></b></div><div><b><br><br></b>>>=
;<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> I will also send you a Klingon story conf=
ined to simpler grammatical structures and basic vocabulary<br></span></div=
><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><br></span>thank you very much<span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> !<br></span></div><div><br></div><div>qunnoQ<br><=
/div><div><b></b></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"ltr=
"><<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyin=
gstart.ca</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lin=
k=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-CA"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">>=
does this<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&=
quot;sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> mean that nouns are always (whenever =
they are stringed together) grouped in pairs ? i.e. the first two, then the=
next two etc ?<br></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>ghobe=E2=80=99.=C2=
=A0 No it doesn=E2=80=99t.<br><br>Here are some groupings from canon senten=
ces<br><br><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>tlhIngan w=
o' Degh --> (Klingon Empire) symbol<br></span><b>tlhI=C2=ADngan qor=
=C2=ADDu=E2=80=99 pong --> a Klingon=E2=80=99s (family name)<br>HoS Hal =
qeng=C2=ADwI=E2=80=99 naQ --> ((power source) carrier) stick)<br>tlhI=C2=
=ADngan yo=E2=80=99 Suv=C2=ADwI=E2=80=99 --> (Klingon fleet) warrior</b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1f497d"><br><br>Please have another look at that e-mail =
with all the parentheses, and see I described that the nouns might be group=
ed in any way. You must use your knowledge of the world to decide which gro=
uping is sensible for the sentence.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m describing the langua=
ge in little bits at a time for you, so each is something you can learn, an=
d after each e-mail you have a little more that you can add to the conversa=
tion, but the messages lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv is sending regardi=
ng thinking about the language are no less important.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s no=
t a little code. It=E2=80=99s a language that means something and neither b=
oQwI=E2=80=99 nor Bing will ever bring what you already have in your head t=
o understanding it.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div><div><div><span=
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:#1f497d">></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">> tlhIngan qam =
=E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Klingon's foot<br=
></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",&qu=
ot;sans-serif";color:#1f497d">></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">&g=
t; qam Hom =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's=
bone<br></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&q=
uot;,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">></span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f=
497d">> baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot<br></span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#1f497d">></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">> tlhIngan baS =
qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (this sounds a littl=
e weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p></span><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bo=
ttom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">lugh! (right!) so unless someone we=
re already talking about a Klingon Terminator or the like, you would probab=
ly lean towards its being a metallic Klingon foot.=C2=A0 Maybe a prosthetic=
?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.=
0pt"><span class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">> You are a human foot =
surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human SoH</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br=
><br>Hmm.=C2=A0 The last noun in any grouping is the one that is the thing,=
with the others being ones that describe it or each other.=C2=A0 So you=E2=
=80=99re calling this person some sort of human. Either they are a (qam Haq=
wI=E2=80=99) Human =E2=80=93 a foot-surgeon Human=E2=80=94or they are a qam=
(HaqwI=E2=80=99 Human)---a foot=E2=80=99s surgeon-Human.=C2=A0 I guess the=
person is a member of a group of humans who have been captured and made in=
to slaves or some kind of exhibition, each individual designated by his or =
her role. The foot-surgeon Human makes sense there.=C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t e=
ven make up a story to make sense of a foot=E2=80=99s surgeon-Human.=C2=A0 =
So try that one again. </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">N=
oun-noun constructions are, for some reason, often challenging for beginner=
s.=C2=A0 I think it may be because basic Klingon sentence order hasn=E2=80=
=99t solidified in their brains yet, so they are still imposing the order o=
f their native language.=C2=A0 Or they start to think of the modifying noun=
s as adjectives, and then ... but why would I need to tell you how to get c=
onfused when you can find your way there without trouble?<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p></div><span class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";colo=
r:#1f497d">> </span></span><span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">lojmIt tI=E2=
=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh </span></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d=
">what is {vIrI'} ? i can't find its meaning.. </span><u></u><u></u=
></p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><sp=
an class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo=
t;,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">> </span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f4=
97d">And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of lang=
uage (real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that language,and no=
t just try to replace words from his </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>=
> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">native language to the one he's =
trying to learn. That is why i have bought every Klingon book i managed to =
find,hoping that as soon as i learn the basics,i will start reading -even a=
t a </span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">> </span><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d=
">very slow pace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel>> of the K=
lingon.</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br><br>Ah good. You are ta=
king his words to heart. I will also send you a Klingon story confined to s=
impler grammatical structures and basic vocabulary.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">- Qov</span><=
u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Oct 11, 20=
15 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <<a href=3D"mailto:lo=
jmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>>=
; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just to suppleme=
nt Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers and lessons here, I just want to open yo=
ur mind to principles that are mentioned in The Klingon Dictionary, but ten=
d to be glossed over by new people learning the language.<u></u><u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you ne=
ed to realize that replacing English words with Klingon words and changing =
the word order is not always going to translate an English sentence into a =
Klingon sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to th=
e words in an English sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to make the s=
entence I=E2=80=99m now writing somewhat of an example of how a person spea=
king English can easily pack a lot more than that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=
=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high school, which is supposed to be the=
official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into a sentence, but in f=
act, English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chelper words=E2=80=9D, c=
an pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just kee=
p on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the original =
=E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sentence was supposed to have conta=
ined, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dre=
amed quite believably within the boundaries of the dream to be the secret o=
f the Universe =E2=80=94 the answer to all questions =E2=80=94 even though =
it has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence I started writing to illu=
strate one of the differences between Klingon grammar and English grammar.<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">My point is, that English can pack much m=
ore into a sentence than any self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever wan=
t to TRY to pack into one Klingon sentence.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D the=
re is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI=
=E2=80=99 jIH. Human jIH.}<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or, if you wan=
ted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human qamDu=E2=80=99 =
vIrI=E2=80=99.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It makes for very clear =
expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial challenge of packing three=
nouns together, leaving the listener to figure out from context what the r=
elationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expect to hold a Klingon=E2=80=99s=
attention by packing more than one thought into a sentence. He might hurt =
you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak long, complex s=
entences to a Klingon.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">In TKD, Okrand als=
o points out that in Klingon, it is much more common than in English to rep=
eat the same noun in a sentence, where in English we tend to replace all bu=
t the first mention with pronouns. The point here is that Klingon sentences=
tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t padding them all that much=
to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the opportunity to be extr=
emely clear about exactly whom or what you are talking about.<u></u><u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom t=
o kill or what to destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to sp=
eak Klingon clearly.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=
=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div=
><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-botto=
m:12.0pt">thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov i=
s a space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i =
should have written it.<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">moving on to your new question,as i understand it=
,it asks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another question arises..=
=C2=A0 the 'a' is an interrogative ; why place a question mark at t=
he end ? isn't that unnecessary ?<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">and to try to answer to the questio=
n : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH.=C2=A0 <br><br>but if wanted to write &q=
uot;no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ? "ghob=
e'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal">qunnoQ<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Oct 10, =
2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <<a href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI'=
; SoH'a'?<br>><br>> with the help of the boQwI app i think th=
at this means : "i'm a surgeon<br>> too. a foot surgeon. are yo=
u a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br><br>maj!<br><br>> i would like to give=
the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So<br>> maybe =
i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br><br>Check what b=
oQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation.=C2=A0 It cannot be used t=
o answer a "yes" or "no" question.=C2=A0 It is used whe=
n somebody tells you to do something and you refuse.=C2=A0 Now look up {gho=
be'}.=C2=A0 The sentence which follows that was very well done. =C2=A0m=
ajQa'!<br><br>> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=C2=A0<br><br>Perfect =
use of {SoH}!=C2=A0 Though I think the other words may have gotten a little=
mixed up.<br><br>When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} a=
nd {Duj logh}), the second noun is the thing being described and the first =
noun modifies it in some way.=C2=A0 A common relationship between the two i=
s that the first noun is owner of the second noun.=C2=A0 But it may also be=
that the second noun is made out of the first noun.=C2=A0 Or that second n=
oun is the type used by the first noun.=C2=A0 Other more complicated relati=
onships are possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-no=
un.=C2=A0 By the way, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when=
you are putting two nouns together you can often (but not always) just put=
the English and Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in=
English, but nothing in Klingon).=C2=A0 In those cases where that is not c=
lear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".=
<br><br>{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). =C2=
=A0{baS Haqtaj} is a "steel scalpel" (made of). =C2=A0{tlhIngan D=
uj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by). =C2=A0{yIn Quj} is the "g=
ame of life" (more complicated relationship).<br><br>So I am a "f=
oot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon o=
f the foot".=C2=A0 You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "=
;limb surgeon", or a "surgeon of the limbs".=C2=A0 And you&#=
39;ve described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space", a "ship=
outer space", or an "outer space of a ship".=C2=A0 You migh=
t have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm procee=
ding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship&quo=
t;.=C2=A0 If that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind o=
f ship and the kind of ship is a space kind.=C2=A0 The descriptor goes firs=
t followed by the thing being described.=C2=A0 So {logh Duj} is "space=
ship".<br><br>nav paq jIH'a'?<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><br>janSIy<br>__________________________________________=
_____<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.or=
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<u></u></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.=
0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol ma=
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