[101342] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sat Oct 10 14:10:10 2015
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 14:09:51 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+zajYMXUP=6qZ6zis3Q5w7m2E8t8UqvQrwgHgKGBcfCw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============3949392703490674686==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_07C24B1E-2BC9-44CE-B88E-4520C5547C5F"
--Apple-Mail=_07C24B1E-2BC9-44CE-B88E-4520C5547C5F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Some small notes:
The written Klingon that we use here is a phonetic representation of =
speech. It is not a Klingon writing system. We tend to include =
punctuation to make meaning understood easier, but there are no =
guidelines for punctuation in The Klingon Dictionary, or any other =
publication authored by Dr. Marc Okrand. We=E2=80=99ve pretty much made =
up our own use of punctuation. It wasn=E2=80=99t an intentional =
standard. It has just evolved over the years.
So, we use question marks because we want to. We don=E2=80=99t have to. =
We just want to.
Klingon questions are grammatically obvious enough that question marks =
are definitely unnecessary, but we use them because we are accustomed to =
using them. If you are writing to someone who speaks Klingon and you =
don=E2=80=99t want people who would see it who don=E2=80=99t speak =
Klingon to know that there=E2=80=99s a question there, leave out the =
question mark. The Klingon speaker will definitely understand that it is =
a question.
Also, since the Romanized alphabet includes an apostrophe, which is =
remarkably similar to a single quote, a pair of which is remarkably =
similar to a double quote, we don=E2=80=99t use quotation marks with =
Klingon. We use << and >>.
Why?=20
Because we choose to. It makes it clearer. It works for us.
And while I=E2=80=99m at it, you might notice that when we include =
Klingon word, like {Qu=E2=80=99vatlh} in what is otherwise English =
speech, we use curly braces. Again, somebody just made that up and the =
rest of us liked it and started doing it. It works.
So, you might consider taking up these conventions commonly used here, =
but rarely explained.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a =
space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i =
should have written it.
>=20
> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a =
paper book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an =
interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that =
unnecessary ?
>=20
> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH. =20
>=20
> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i =
write it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>=20
> qunnoQ
>=20
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com =
<mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com>> wrote:
> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
> >
> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a =
surgeon
> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>=20
> maj!
>=20
> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>=20
> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be =
used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells =
you to do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence =
which follows that was very well done. majQa'!
>=20
> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=20
>=20
> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten =
a little mixed up.
>=20
> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), =
the second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies =
it in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first =
noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second =
noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type =
used by the first noun. Other more complicated relationships are =
possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the =
way, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are =
putting two nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the =
English and Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in =
English, but nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that is not =
clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".
>=20
> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a =
"steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used =
by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>=20
> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of =
the foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a =
"surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of =
outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You =
might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding =
under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If =
that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of =
ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first followed by the thing =
being described. So {logh Duj} is "space ship".
>=20
> nav paq jIH'a'?
>=20
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_07C24B1E-2BC9-44CE-B88E-4520C5547C5F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Some small notes:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The written Klingon that we use here is =
a phonetic representation of speech. It is not a Klingon writing system. =
We tend to include punctuation to make meaning understood easier, but =
there are no guidelines for punctuation in The Klingon Dictionary, or =
any other publication authored by Dr. Marc Okrand. We=E2=80=99ve pretty =
much made up our own use of punctuation. It wasn=E2=80=99t an =
intentional standard. It has just evolved over the years.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, we use question =
marks because we want to. We don=E2=80=99t have to. We just want =
to.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Klingon =
questions are grammatically obvious enough that question marks are =
definitely unnecessary, but we use them because we are accustomed to =
using them. If you are writing to someone who speaks Klingon and you =
don=E2=80=99t want people who would see it who don=E2=80=99t speak =
Klingon to know that there=E2=80=99s a question there, leave out the =
question mark. The Klingon speaker will definitely understand that it is =
a question.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, since the Romanized alphabet includes an apostrophe, =
which is remarkably similar to a single quote, a pair of which is =
remarkably similar to a double quote, we don=E2=80=99t use quotation =
marks with Klingon. We use << and >>.</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Why? </div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Because we choose to. It makes it =
clearer. It works for us.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And while I=E2=80=99m at it, you might notice that when we =
include Klingon word, like {Qu=E2=80=99vatlh} in what is otherwise =
English speech, we use curly braces. Again, somebody just made that up =
and the rest of us liked it and started doing it. It works.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, you might consider =
taking up these conventions commonly used here, but rarely =
explained.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =
=E2=80=98utlh</div><div class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired =
Honorably</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that =
Qov is a space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i =
understand how i should have written it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it =
asks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another question arises.. the =
'a' is an interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't =
that unnecessary ?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>and to try to =
answer to the question : ghobe'. <span class=3D"im">qam HaqwI' =
SoH. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">but if wanted to write "no,you =
are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ? "</span>ghobe'. <span =
class=3D"im">qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"im">qunnoQ<br =
class=3D""></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, =
David Holt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D"">>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?<br =
class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a =
surgeon<br class=3D"">
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>maj!<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". =
So<br class=3D"">
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It =
cannot be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when =
somebody tells you to do something and you refuse. Now look up =
{ghobe'}. The sentence which follows that was very well done. =
majQa'!<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH ! <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may =
have gotten a little mixed up.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the =
second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it =
in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the =
first noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that =
the second noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun =
is the type used by the first noun. Other more complicated =
relationships are possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of =
second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how we do it in English, =
too and when you are putting two nouns together you can often (but not =
always) just put the English and Klingon in the same order (for =
possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those =
cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the =
words and insert "of".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is =
a "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" =
(used by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated =
relationship).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the =
foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a =
"surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind =
of outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a =
ship". You might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but =
I'm proceeding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space =
ship". If that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship =
and the kind of ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first =
followed by the thing being described. So {logh Duj} is "space =
ship".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
nav paq jIH'a'?<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D"">
janSIy<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_07C24B1E-2BC9-44CE-B88E-4520C5547C5F--
--===============3949392703490674686==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============3949392703490674686==--
