[101294] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon: Associate Producer
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Oct 6 12:48:04 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2015 12:46:34 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W20560572CF8DBEF420F6B0AA370@phx.gbl>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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While this is all good information and accurate, a tidbit that might =
make it make more sense is that {lo=92laH} became exceptional because =
Okrand inadvertently used it as an adjective modifying a noun. {-laH} is =
not a suffix you can normally use on a =93to be=94 verb used as an =
adjective. He declared {lo=92laH} a root verb in order to retroactively =
make his mistake not a mistake without having to declare that all =93to =
be=94 verbs can use {-laH} added while they are used as adjectives. It=92s=
not a rule change he wanted to make, so the verb became exceptional.
This is how many Klingon exceptions are created, giving it the quantity =
of exceptions to its rules that make it more like a natural language.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Oct 6, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> ghItlhpu' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv, jatlh:
> > But the only real rule is that (with few exceptions like {lI'be'} =
and {lo'laH}) verbs are monosyllabic.
>=20
> In addition, for HoD qunnoQ's information, it's important also to know =
that most of the apparent exceptions listed in TKD are there simply as =
lookup aids (for instance, {jubbe'} "be mortal", {HeghmoH} "be fatal"), =
and {lI'be'} falls into that group as far as we know. Marc has addressed =
this idea explicitly in a posting to the MSN Newsgroup:
>=20
> "For the most part, entries in The Klingon Dictionary (and also in the =
addendum in Klingon For the Galactic Traveler) that consist of verb + =
suffix are indeed just that, verb + suffix. For example, one entry in =
the Dictionary is pujmoH "weaken." This is really puj "be weak" and the =
suffix -moH "cause" (thus "weaken" is "cause to be weak"). Since -moH is =
a Type 4 suffix, if a suffix of Type 1, 2, or 3 is to be used (such as =
-chuq "each other" [Type 1] or -nIS "need" [Type 2]), it would precede =
the Type 4 -moH; for example, pujchuqmoH "they weaken each other" or =
pujnISmoH "he/she needs to weaken [somebody]." It is, of course, =
possible to add the suffix -moH to lots of verbs; not all of the verb + =
-moH combinations are listed in the Dictionary as distinct entries. The =
ones that are listed are there as much as a matter of convenience for =
the user as anything else. For example, there is an entry for "commit =
suicide" just in case anyone wants to look that word up; but the Klingon =
equivalent is simply HoH'egh, literally "kill oneself" (HoH "kill" plus =
Type 1 verb suffix -'egh "oneself")." (Okrand to MSN Newsgroup, 30 Nov =
1997)
>=20
> So despite the gloss, {HeghmoH} (for instance) isn't an adjectival =
verb as the gloss "be fatal" might suggest; it's a verb-suffix compound. =
{bIHeghmoH} means "you cause [an unspecified object] to die" - more =
simply, "you cause [things] to die", or "you are fatal". Marc does go on =
to note, though, that {lo'laH} *is* an exception, and despite its =
superficial similarity to {lo'} + {-laH} (from which it may be =
descended), it is indeed a disyllabic and indivisible root in ta' Hol. =
So it'd be {jIlo'laHchoH} "I become valuable", {Dalo'laHmoH} "you cause =
it to be valuable". {Dalo'moHlaH} means something entirely different, =
"you can cause [someone] to use it".
>=20
> QeS
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">While this is all good information and =
accurate, a tidbit that might make it make more sense is that {lo=92laH} =
became exceptional because Okrand inadvertently used it as an adjective =
modifying a noun. {-laH} is not a suffix you can normally use on a =93to =
be=94 verb used as an adjective. He declared {lo=92laH} a root verb in =
order to retroactively make his mistake not a mistake without having to =
declare that all =93to be=94 verbs can use {-laH} added while they are =
used as adjectives. It=92s not a rule change he wanted to make, so the =
verb became exceptional.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is how many Klingon exceptions are created, giving it =
the quantity of exceptions to its rules that make it more like a natural =
language.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 6, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Rohan Fenwick <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" class=3D"">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">ghItlhpu' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> But =
the only real rule is that (with few exceptions like {lI'be'} and =
{lo'laH}) verbs are monosyllabic.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
addition, for HoD qunnoQ's information, it's important also to know that =
most of the apparent exceptions listed in TKD are there simply as lookup =
aids (for instance, {jubbe'} "be mortal", {HeghmoH} "be fatal"), and =
{lI'be'} falls into that group as far as we know. Marc has addressed =
this idea explicitly in a posting to the MSN Newsgroup:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">"For the most part, entries in The Klingon Dictionary (and =
also in the addendum in Klingon For the Galactic Traveler) that consist =
of verb + suffix are indeed just that, verb + suffix. For example, one =
entry in the Dictionary is pujmoH "weaken." This is really puj "be weak" =
and the suffix -moH "cause" (thus "weaken" is "cause to be weak"). Since =
-moH is a Type 4 suffix, if a suffix of Type 1, 2, or 3 is to be used =
(such as -chuq "each other" [Type 1] or -nIS "need" [Type 2]), it would =
precede the Type 4 -moH; for example, pujchuqmoH "they weaken each =
other" or pujnISmoH "he/she needs to weaken [somebody]." It is, of =
course, possible to add the suffix -moH to lots of verbs; not all of the =
verb + -moH combinations are listed in the Dictionary as distinct =
entries. The ones that are listed are there as much as a matter of =
convenience for the user as anything else. For example, there is an =
entry for "commit suicide" just in case anyone wants to look that word =
up; but the Klingon equivalent is simply HoH'egh, literally "kill =
oneself" (HoH "kill" plus Type 1 verb suffix -'egh "oneself")." (Okrand =
to MSN Newsgroup, 30 Nov 1997)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So despite =
the gloss, {HeghmoH} (for instance) isn't an adjectival verb as the =
gloss "be fatal" might suggest; it's a verb-suffix compound. {bIHeghmoH} =
means "you cause [an unspecified object] to die" - more simply, "you =
cause [things] to die", or "you are fatal". Marc does go on to note, =
though, that {lo'laH} *is* an exception, and despite its superficial =
similarity to {lo'} + {-laH} (from which it may be descended), it is =
indeed a disyllabic and indivisible root in ta' Hol. So it'd be =
{jIlo'laHchoH} "I become valuable", {Dalo'laHmoH} "you cause it to be =
valuable". {Dalo'moHlaH} means something entirely different, "you can =
cause [someone] to use it".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">QeS<br =
class=3D""></div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; =
font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
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0px;" class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br style=3D"font-family: =
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none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
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style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
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ockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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