[23653] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] Logo Issue
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Ryan Gallagher)
Sat Mar 29 16:04:59 2003
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 16:04:56 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
From: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Br. Kreifus wrote:
Wow...quite a response. Firstly, I didn't say I was changing the coat of
arms. One of my brothers did an artists rendition, and wanted some feedback.
Secondly, It surprises me to see how many people are adamant about not
changing things. Tradition is a fine thing, but if someone has something
new, it may not be bad.
I agree that change is good, just not too fast. I, too am a big supporter
of traditions, I just think that new look betrayed heraldry a bit (only the
wing thingies, not other aspects like proportions). See my recent post.
Michael Gallagher
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Kreifus" <dkreifus@yahoo.com>
To: <APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 11:17 AM
Subject: [APO-L] Logo Issue
> FIRST:
> Larger versions of the images available:
>
> http://euphrates.wpunj.edu/clubs/alphaphiomega/coa1.gif
>
> http://euphrates.wpunj.edu/clubs/alphaphiomega/coa2.gif
>
>
>
> Wow...quite a response. Firstly, I didn't say I was changing the coat of
> arms. One of my brothers did an artists rendition, and wanted some
feedback.
>
> Secondly, It surprises me to see how many people are adamant about not
> changing things. Tradition is a fine thing, but if someone has something
> new, it may not be bad. It's not like we're changing the Coat of Arms,
> perhaps giving it a different look?
>
> Don't get me wrong, I am a big supporter of traditions. And our coat of
arms
> is rich in history. But I just so surprised at how no one wants anything
> different.
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> In LFS,
> Dan Kreifus
> President
> Alpha Phi Omega
> Alpha Gamma Mu Chapter
> William Paterson University
> Wayne, NJ
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddha Buck" <bmbuck@14850.com>
> To: <APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 11:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [APO-L] Logo Issue, and side bar
>
>
> > Michael Ryan Gallagher wrote:
> > > Active Brothers changing something...one thing I see as a potential
> problem
> > > is that things could change every Convention as a new mix of Actives
are
> > > Members and a new mix of delegates some with even changed opinions
from
> > > previous points in time than they had before in their APO or life
> > > experience...
> >
> > I fail to see the problem, potential or otherwise.
> >
> > At National Conventions, everything is potentially up for change; the
> > active delegates could decide unanimously that rituals should, wherever
> > possible, be held in public locations, or that it is allowed and
> > recommended for rituals to be held in the nude, or that the purpose of
> > the Fraternity is to seek, through peaceful and legal means, the
> > replacement of the President of the United States as Head of State with
> > a hereditary monarch. Are any of these likely? No.
> >
> > Every Convention has had a new mix of Actives and delegates. Given that
> > the average "active" lifetime for a Brother is three semesters, and that
> > the averate time between conventions is four semesters, the number of
> > delegates who get to serve at two or more conventions is likely very
low.
> >
> > Every active's opinions change over time with life experience. Our
> > actives are college students, a time of their life when they are
> > expected to be gaining lots of new experiences, new knowledge, new
> > wisdom. If someone went through four years of college and didn't have
> > at least some of their opinions change, I'd be very shocked.
> >
> > So.... since this is a Fraternity of Actives, a Faternity of Students,
> > first and foremost... where is the problem with a changing mix of
> > students, a changing mix of opinions?
> >
> > >
> > > Michael Gallagher
> > > Zeta Sigma Historian & Webmaster
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Finder, Randolph J Mr NGB-ARNG" <Randolph.Finder@ngb.army.mil>
> > > To: <APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 10:38 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [APO-L] Logo Issue, and side bar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>>Here are what I see, from a heraldic viewpoint, the
> > >>>differences between
> > >>>(A) the original arms on the National Charter that Randy linked to in
> > >>>his previous post, (B) the current arms as I see then today on the
> > >>>National ebsite, and (c) the proposed "new logo":
> > >>>
> > >>>Between (A) and (B): 1) Three fleur-de-lis are changed to three
> > >>>torches. 2) (uncertain) The shape of the remaining
> > >>>fleur-de-lis changed
> > >>>to be in sync with the BSA's usage. I don't know offhand if this is
> > >>>significant. Does anyone know if the description of that element
> > >>>changed in the ritual books when this change happened?
> > >>
> > >>No, but if anyone does have a handy copy of any of the pre-1932 ritual
> > >
> > > books
> > >
> > >>handy, I'd *love* to see it.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Between (B) and (C): The helm faceplate is closed as opposed
> > >>>to open.
> > >>>I forget if the textual description of the helm specifies open or
> > >>>closed. If it doesn't, this might fall into the category of minor
> > >>>artistic detail.
> > >>
> > >>Yes, the open helm is part of the textual description, but at the size
> of
> > >>those icons, who can tell.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>The general feeling I've gotten on these designs from people who have
> > >
> > > posted
> > >
> > >>run about half and half between "Over my dead body" and "Well if the
> > >
> > > active
> > >
> > >>brothers really want it, I guess I'll live with it." and that is
without
> > >
> > > the
> > >
> > >>original poster even proposing them as replacements on the National
> level
> > >>rather than just cool icons that can be used on websites.
> > >>
> > >>Until someone gets up to the microphone and says "I want to change the
> > >>official national coat of arms/crest to what is there", I think the
> > >
> > > argument
> > >
> > >>is more or less done...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Randy
> > >>
> >
>
