[19288] in APO-L
Responding to Jesse
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Diet Coke Boy)
Tue Oct 6 19:34:59 1998
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:24:42 -0400
Reply-To: Diet Coke Boy <henrymrx@access5.digex.net>
From: Diet Coke Boy <henrymrx@ACCESS5.DIGEX.NET>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
In-Reply-To: <19981006223711.3855.qmail@www0d.netaddress.usa.net>
On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Jesse Bridges wrote:
> (Richard: )
>
> > Excuse me? Did you say "their traditions?" Well,we passed an agreement
> > to protect "their traditions", even if YOU seem to think they are
> > "outdated." I hate to break it to you, but no brother, you included,
> > is the sole arbiter of whose traditions are valid or not. As long as > they
> are not related to hazing or similar,
> > traditions belong to chapters, not to others' opinions of what is
> > "correct." I don't understand alot of people's traditions, but they are >
> there, and I respect them. That "outdated tradition" smacks of "White >
> Man's Burden" that pervaded racist culture at the turn of the 20th > century.
> No, I am not calling you a racist,
> > but don't presume that your belief makes it right for everyone.
>
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> I was wondering when this debate would get going again, and after reading the
> Fall '98 T&T, and the determination of the National Board, I knew it wouldn't
> be long. Traditions are a great thing, until they become an obstacle to
> progress.
(Jeese:)
> You see, this statement should read "traditions are great to some people..."
> We speak of this fraternity as though every aspect of it is meant for people
> on a different planet, non-humans, prehistoric carvings. If we jettison
> ahead, without a thinking that a foundation is important, we might want to
> shorten our history, and change the founding date, set the stage for a new
> beginning, have new founders, recreate it's history, reformulate it's
> purpose, create a new organization without really recreating a new
> organization.
>
> How about it?
>
> At this point if we don't lend value to (history and traditions) then what use
> is it for. Why is it in our manuals and in our rituals. Why is it that when
> people create something with their souls, other people feel it has an
> expiration date.
Me:
I'm sorry, Jesse, but this makes no sense. How does discriminating
against women embody the spirit of Frank Reed Horton? How does
discriminating against women uphold our history and traditions?
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> I remember (from history class) another strong tradition, and it nearly split
> the country. It seems that the all-male tradition may split the Fraternity.
(Jesse:)
> Mowing over the small buildings, if they do not conform, isn't always the
> answer to big business. Yes there are less than 30 chapters that are all
> male on co-ed campuses, as well as chapters that are all female on co-ed
> campuses. What are the all-male chapters doing? Why are they doing this?
> What keeps them from going co-ed? What is wrong with holding on to the very
> beginning. Holding on to the very spririt of what they believe that has been
> going on from the start. At this point the history has been change. And
> what Frank Reed Horton said initially has changed. Or at least what was in the
> history had initially stated he said.
Me:
An important distiction must be made here: An all-female chapter at a
co-ed school may have a hard time getting men to join, but they cannot
discriminate against them and PREVENT them from joining. An all-male
chapter at a co-ed school can do just that to women.
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> On one hand we have the traditions of the all-male chapters
> (and I'm assuming the all-female chapters exist on women-only schools) and
> on the other the outright discrimination against part of the student body
> based on gender.
(Jesse:)
> There are all female chapter at co-ed campuses
Me:
Really? Name one.
> (Richard: )
>
> > How many times do we have to say it: The compromise was written out to
> > allow such chapters the right of maintaining the brotherhood the way
> > they saw fit, ie. all-male. I am sorry that it didn't turn out the
> > way you thought it would, but that is tough. Overall, there are less > than
> 30 chapters that remain
> > all-male. You have your principle: the vast majority of APO is co-ed, >
> and many all-males are dying out. There was no eventual purpose to it. > It
> was a compromise born out of respect for tradition. Don't you dare
> > try to rewrite history to benifit your self-righteousness. It may have
> > been thought that the all-males would die out, but they remain.
> > Why? Because their brotherhood is strong that way. Would you be so >
> willing to sacrifice that for your own
> > sense of what is correct? Delta, whom you bring up as an example, has
> > a strong tradition. I have seen it at Nationals from 1992 - 1996, and
> > expect to see it again. Don't hurt them just to prove yourself right.
>
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> My understanding of the "Gentleman's Agreement" is not that it was a
> compromise to preserve tradition, but a compromise to allow the Fraternity
> to become Co-Ed. (this as related to me by a couple Brothers who were there
> and not directly quoted) Without this compromise, the vote may have failed,
> leading to a lawsuit led by Zeta against the Fraternity. And most importantly,
> the compromise, as I also understand it, was only a solution, and was not
> written into the by-laws. As a resolution, it can be overturned by another
> resolution, which only requires a majority vote, not the 2/3 majority to
> change the by-laws. As the voting body of the Fraternity, the delegates will
> have to decide if it is in the Fraternity's best interest to remove the
> grandfather clause. The Fraternity's best interests may be more important than
> the wishes of the 30-odd chapters that wish to remain all-male. And I'm sure
> some will be displeased with their decision, but the Brotherhood will survive.
(Jesse:)
> This is the very statement that made me want to respond to Hawkeye. I am
> not mad. I've been associated, and dedicated to this organization for 18
> years. I have never experinced an non-considerate act like this by service
> minded individuals. It is not just the members of their undergraduates, but
> also their forgotten-greater number of supportive alumni that is still apart
> of this organization. The best interest of the fraternity, is a powerful
> statement. Because it always seem to say "regardless". But you have to
> always regard the diversity of our organization. Saying not just co-ed only,
> but the all-male chapters the all-female chapters the Philippine chapters, and
> all other international chapters. Because we have changed some
> characteristics of the fraternity and some chapter held on to what they felt
> was the total scope of the organization you want to force the issue of
> co-edness upon them? This to me is no better than saying indians no-longer
> have the right to the land they live on. One way or the highway?
Me:
I need to remind you that this is a fraternity of college students. They
make the decisions. Alumni (like me) do not. If a decision must be made
that is in the best interest of the current students and the future
students that *I* don't happen to like, I just have to live with it. If
we (alumni) try to stop that we hinder the growth and development of the
student leaders in this Fraternity.
Remember, the alumni are here to serve the students. NOT the other way
around. If the students do something that we don't like, TOUGH.
(Jesse:)
> Today, I believe that if a group of men, because of their experiences, made a
> firm resolution within themselves that if they attended college they would try
> to do two things and do them with all their power: First, do their best to
> help young men get the right start in life, by holding up before them a
> "standard of manhood" that would withstand the test of time! Second and just
> as important try to help the nations of the world
> settle their disputes in a more sensible and legal manner than by war, they
> would not be able to do this but within these male chapters. No offense, to
> any females, but these are the words and goals of Frank Reed Horton. I am not
> saying that females can not do this. I'm saying that we have slammed the door
> on any group of male brothers that feels this very thing they can not do this
> unless they go to an all ready made chapter. They could not create a chapter
> like this right now if they felt this way even if they had ten white males and
> ten latino males.
Me:
Ah, so the goals of Frank Reed Horton cannot be accomplished with all
these pesky women in the way?
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> So far in the 2 years I've seen this debate rage, I have yet to see a
> rational, logical arguement in favor of allowing the all-male chapters to
> remain, as it is always based on emotion and tradition.
(Jesse:)
> Emotion and Tradition is not logical? Please! Then what you are saying is the
> passion which created this organization is not logical.
Me:
I would argure that the high-minded ideals of service and ending war are
very, very logical.
> (Hawkeye: )
>
> There is no logical reason to prevent females from joining the Fraternity at
> any chapter, so it may be time that this tradition be changed for the
> betterment of the Fraternity.
(Jesse:)
> In all actuality, I totally agree with you. If a female wanted to join this
> fraternity I think she should have every right to. But not at the expense of
Me: That should read "she should have every right to, provided she
doesn't attend a school where an all-male chapter is located."
> all males with a passion to create a chapter. I think that every female
> should have the right to join the fraternity at any campus. And I also
> believe that men should not have to go out and try to recruit females in order
> to establish a chapter. I believe that a chapter that is composed of all
> males/all females should never be force to include another gender or penalized
> because they are only one gender. If you embody the spirit of FRANK REED
> HORTON and you feel as though you can best accomplish the goals he set out to
> accomplish through service, with the current group you have......then I say
> you are definitely in the Best Interest of this Fraternity.
>
> Jesse "Jaybee" Bridges
Me:
I'm not saying that I disagree with you either, Jesse. Just use better
arguments and try to address the points directly.
What we're really talking about here is gender discrimination. If you
feel that certain chapters should have the right to discriminate against
women, come out and say it.
Please note that I have not stated my position on this issue, just trying
to get the list to re-examine some tired arguments in new ways.
A couple of other things that keep being brought up in this debate that
need to be addressed:
1. "The Gentlemen's agreement". I have yet to hear from (or meet) ANYONE
who was actually there when the agreement was hammered out who can give us
a first hand account of what happened. Without that first-hand account,
it's all hearsay.
2. Gamma Sigma Sigma and Omega Phi Alpha. The point has been made that
co-eding chapters could harm these groups. As heartless as this may
sound, that argument is really irrelevant. Their survival is their
business.
3. Tradition:
OK. Quick poll. How many of the following things have gone UNCHANGED
since the founding or the start of the tradition? Replies to me, not the
list. I'll post the results along with answers.
Handclasp
Fraternity Pin
Service Pin
Pledge Pin
Fraternity Crest
Toast Song
Induction Ritual (aka Pledge Ritual)
Initiation Ritual (aka Activation)
Again, poll replies to me, NOT the list.
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/ ( /_ / |/ / \ / Diet Coke Boy - http://www.wam.umd.edu/~henrymrx
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