[19286] in APO-L
Responding to Hawkeye
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jesse Bridges)
Tue Oct 6 18:37:21 1998
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:37:11 EDT
Reply-To: Jesse Bridges <Jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
From: Jesse Bridges <Jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
(Richard: )
> Excuse me? Did you say "their traditions?" Well,we passed an agreement =
> to protect "their traditions", even if YOU seem to think they are
> "outdated." I hate to break it to you, but no brother, you included, =
> is the sole arbiter of whose traditions are valid or not. As long as > =
they
are not related to hazing or similar, =
> traditions belong to chapters, not to others' opinions of what is =
> "correct." I don't understand alot of people's traditions, but they are=
>
there, and I respect them. That "outdated tradition" smacks of "White >=
Man's Burden" that pervaded racist culture at the turn of the 20th > cent=
ury. =
No, I am not calling you a racist, =
> but don't presume that your belief makes it right for everyone. =
=
(Hawkeye: )
I was wondering when this debate would get going again, and after reading=
the
Fall '98 T&T, and the determination of the National Board, I knew it woul=
dn't
be long. Traditions are a great thing, until they become an obstacle to
progress.
(Me: )
You see, this statement should read "traditions are great to some people.=
=2E."
We speak of this fraternity as though every aspect of it is meant for peo=
ple
on a different planet, non-humans, prehistoric carvings. If we jettison
ahead, without a thinking that a foundation is important, we might want t=
o
shorten our history, and change the founding date, set the stage for a ne=
w
beginning, have new founders, recreate it's history, reformulate it's
purpose, create a new organization without really recreating a new
organization.
How about it?
At this point if we don't lend value to (history and traditions) then wha=
t use
is it for. Why is it in our manuals and in our rituals. Why is it that =
when
people create something with their souls, other people feel it has an
expiration date.
(Hawkeye: )
I remember (from history class) another strong tradition, and it nearly s=
plit
the country. It seems that the all-male tradition may split the Fraternit=
y. =
(Me: )
Mowing over the small buildings, if they do not conform, isn't always the=
answer to big business. Yes there are less than 30 chapters that are al=
l
male on co-ed campuses, as well as chapters that are all female on co-ed
campuses. What are the all-male chapters doing? Why are they doing this=
? =
What keeps them from going co-ed? What is wrong with holding on to the v=
ery
beginning. Holding on to the very spririt of what they believe that has =
been
going on from the start. At this point the history has been change. An=
d
what Frank Reed Horton said initially has changed. Or at least what was i=
n the
history had initially stated he said. =
(Hawkeye: )
On one hand we have the traditions of the all-male chapters =
(and I'm assuming the all-female chapters exist on women-only schools) an=
d =
on the other the outright discrimination against part of the student body=
=
based on gender. =
(ME: )
There are all female chapter at co-ed campuses
(Richard: )
> How many times do we have to say it: The compromise was written out to
> allow such chapters the right of maintaining the brotherhood the way =
> they saw fit, ie. all-male. I am sorry that it didn't turn out the =
> way you thought it would, but that is tough. Overall, there are less > =
than
30 chapters that remain =
> all-male. You have your principle: the vast majority of APO is co-ed,=
>
and many all-males are dying out. There was no eventual purpose to it. =
> It
was a compromise born out of respect for tradition. Don't you dare =
> try to rewrite history to benifit your self-righteousness. It may have =
> been thought that the all-males would die out, but they remain. =
> Why? Because their brotherhood is strong that way. Would you be so >
willing to sacrifice that for your own =
> sense of what is correct? Delta, whom you bring up as an example, has =
> a strong tradition. I have seen it at Nationals from 1992 - 1996, and =
> expect to see it again. Don't hurt them just to prove yourself right. =
=
(Hawkeye: )
My understanding of the "Gentleman's Agreement" is not that it was a =
compromise to preserve tradition, but a compromise to allow the Fraternit=
y =
to become Co-Ed. (this as related to me by a couple Brothers who were the=
re
and not directly quoted) Without this compromise, the vote may have fail=
ed,
leading to a lawsuit led by Zeta against the Fraternity. And most importa=
ntly,
the compromise, as I also understand it, was only a solution, and was not=
written into the by-laws. As a resolution, it can be overturned by anothe=
r
resolution, which only requires a majority vote, not the 2/3 majority to
change the by-laws. As the voting body of the Fraternity, the delegates =
will
have to decide if it is in the Fraternity's best interest to remove the
grandfather clause. The Fraternity's best interests may be more important=
than
the wishes of the 30-odd chapters that wish to remain all-male. And I'm s=
ure
some will be displeased with their decision, but the Brotherhood will sur=
vive.
(Me: )
This is the very statement that made me want to respond to Hawkeye. I am=
not mad. I've been associated, and dedicated to this organization for 18=
years. I have never experinced an non-considerate act like this by servic=
e
minded individuals. It is not just the members of their undergraduates, =
but
also their forgotten-greater number of supportive alumni that is still ap=
art
of this organization. The best interest of the fraternity, is a powerful=
statement. Because it always seem to say "regardless". But you have to
always regard the diversity of our organization. Saying not just co-ed o=
nly,
but the all-male chapters the all-female chapters the Philippine chapters=
, and
all other international chapters. Because we have changed some
characteristics of the fraternity and some chapter held on to what they f=
elt
was the total scope of the organization you want to force the issue of
co-edness upon them? This to me is no better than saying indians no-long=
er
have the right to the land they live on. One way or the highway? =
Today, I believe that if a group of men, because of their experiences, m=
ade a
firm resolution within themselves that if they attended college they woul=
d try
to do two things and do them with all their power: First, do their best t=
o
help young men get the right start in life, by holding up before them a
"standard of manhood" that would withstand the test of time! Second and j=
ust
as important try to help the nations of the world =
settle their disputes in a more sensible and legal manner than by war, t=
hey
would not be able to do this but within these male chapters. No offense,=
to
any females, but these are the words and goals of Frank Reed Horton. I a=
m not
saying that females can not do this. I'm saying that we have slammed the=
door
on any group of male brothers that feels this very thing they can not do =
this
unless they go to an all ready made chapter. They could not create a cha=
pter
like this right now if they felt this way even if they had ten white male=
s and
ten latino males. =
=
(Hawkeye: )
So far in the 2 years I've seen this debate rage, I have yet to see a
rational, logical arguement in favor of allowing the all-male chapters to=
remain, as it is always based on emotion and tradition. =
(Me: )
Emotion and Tradition is not logical? Please! Then what you are saying i=
s the
passion which created this organization is not logical. =
(Hawkeye: )
There is no logical reason to prevent females from joining the Fraternity=
at
any chapter, so it may be time that this tradition be changed for the
betterment of the Fraternity. =
(Me: Sorry for the lengthy letter)
In all actuality, I totally agree with you. If a female wanted to join th=
is
fraternity I think she should have every right to. But not at the expens=
e of
all males with a passion to create a chapter. I think that every female
should have the right to join the fraternity at any campus. And I also
believe that men should not have to go out and try to recruit females in =
order
to establish a chapter. I believe that a chapter that is composed of all=
males/all females should never be force to include another gender or pena=
lized
because they are only one gender. If you embody the spirit of FRANK REED=
HORTON and you feel as though you can best accomplish the goals he set ou=
t to
accomplish through service, with the current group you have......then I s=
ay
you are definitely in the Best Interest of this Fraternity.
Jesse "Jaybee" Bridges
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