[108356] in Cypherpunks
Re: H-WEB: N Chomsky on Hayek & 'inevitable' Dictatorship
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Anonymous)
Sat Feb 13 14:56:07 1999
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:15:56 +0100
From: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Reply-To: Anonymous <nobody@replay.com>
>reason that some "command economies" worked and some didn't is because
>pseudo-capitalist systems like the US and other Western countries allowed
>the little people to play in their capitalist sandboxes until they became
>successful. They were litteraly laboring under the delusion that they
>were free and could own things. When they became successful they found
>something quite the contrary. Their assets were owned ultimately by the
>state, but it was too late because you had already created wealth for the
>state. The more you tried to free yourself from the state juggenaut, the
>more it became apparent that you were chattle. Owned completely by the
Systems (ie. mass psychosis induced in order to keep several thugs, their
families and an army of cronies in a perpetual power) differ in the "object
of desire". Lands governed by socialist ideologies peddle "workers
kingdoms" and "humanist values". Capitalism works better (in the sense
that their thugs have better weaponry available) because it pushes
(nicely described above) more down-to-earth and observable things like
"doing your own business" to make "money". The result is that capitalism
extracts far more labour from its population. Anything more esoteric than
tabloid press suffers in the process. Socialism, on the other side,
manages to maintain some cultural content until the general refusal to
volunteer labour for bankrupt visions completely destroys infrastructure.
These systems work by shifting the focus from reality to ideology. The
best way to experience this is to spend some time on the "other side". Most
people go through a "system shock" after several months. I have found
that any rational discussion on systems between long term inmates of a
particular system is impossible. Language (newspeak), education and
constant brainwashing get in the way.
These days populations of lands that did not do well in either
spectrum got the best deal. Several smallish countries in Europe ("east"
& "west"), some lesser known countries in Asia and even few in Africa.
Best deal in terms of existence of social fabric, general personal
long-term security, leisure time and intellectual freedom. Nothing to do
with EC/US definitions of "standard of living", of course.
>state. If you ever try to leave the US because you don't like way they
>"re-allocate" your assets, you will learn that you must buy your way out.
>If you ever want to rescind your US citizenship, and they think its
>because your don't wan't to be a tax slave, you will owe them the amount
>of taxes you would have payed had you lived there. Essentially buying
Is this a fact ? Can you provide some pointers ? What are the mechanics
of this extortion ? Say, I move to France, are they going to use Interpol
to get me, ask for extradition (on what grounds), or just threat to
arrest if I ever come back ? Any real world cases of people that paid
taxes on US-made income and then moved abroad ?
>Of course not. Austrian economics despises the fiat currencies which are
>the bullwark of power in this century. Certainly they had no use for
>them. State initiated slavery through the debasement of a people's money
>is the most despicable and insidious form of slavery -- and I find it
>really distressing that Chomsky misses this point. One of Chomsky's
>theories, and one I admire very much, is that politicians saying one thing
Chomsky always stops after he gets few inches outside the allowed
range. In that sense he is an intellectual prostitute as much as those
that he (rightly and constantly) spits on.
Vapour-based money is the most fascinating phenomenon of the late 20th
century. I mean, people were stupid before, but this is the greatest scam
of all times. Money is printed paper, numbers in a computer, and
relationship between that and food, house or anything else is arbitrarily
set by an oligarchy. Everything that you "own" that depends on the
"value" of these units is not your property. It is no wonder that a
possibility of a competing systems (like anon e-cash with everybody being
a mint) outside their control upsets these oligarchies so much.
The high level of abstraction achieved with the concept of money, which
makes it such an ideal enslavement tool ("look, no hands") is at the same
time its weak point. Strong crypto will come, sooner or later, and
(unless US establishes complete control over the entire world) things will
change dramatically.
I think that a pilot project is in order. Doubly anonymous e-cash system
backed by a fictitiuos "bank" with volunteer participants (everybody gets
1000 talirs to start with; use it to pay for postings on cpunks; earn
through anon donations; use your imagination.)
This is not more complicated than mix remailers. The system does not have
to have any relationship with any paper currency. After a few years we
will figure out everything there is to figure out about this, and a
functional system will be in existance. More fun and more dangerous than
pgping mail (I am already bored by that.)
Is there any available code that can be a good starting point ?
