[126] in bcs-newton
[comp.sys.pen] Details from a MessagePad user
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Carl R. Manning)
Sat Jul 31 14:22:43 1993
From: caroma@ai.mit.edu (Carl R. Manning)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 14:22:10 EDT
To: bcs-newton@world.std.com, newton_pda_group@bcsmac.bcs.org
For the BCS Newton User group: Here's a beta-user report which largely
agrees with what we saw and heard at the June BCS Newton PDA meeting.
Cheers, CarlManning
------- Start of forwarded message -------
From: fry@garnet.msen.com (David Fry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.pen
Subject: Details from a MessagePad user
Date: 30 Jul 1993 11:29:10 -0400
Organization: Gullfoss Software
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.msen.com
With interest in the Newton growing here, I'm going to post this user
review from Neil Shapiro, SysOp of the new NEWTON forum on CompuServe.
It gives details gained from his actual experiences using a MessagePad
for several days. Since there are obviously some readers here who are
anti-Apple, based on religous principles, you may feel this writer
is too much of a cheerleader. Fair enough, but have a read anyway. He
doesn't wholeheartedly endorse the MessagePad as the greatest thing in
history, but I think his excitement comes through.
David Fry fry@msen.com
Gullfoss Software Phone/Fax: 313-665-4667
3725 Glazier Way
Ann Arbor, MI 48105
------------------------------
A FIRST LOOK:
THE NEWTON MESSAGEPAD: SOMETHING TO HOLD ONTO?
by Neil L. Shapiro
(Copyright (c) 1993 by Neil L. Shapiro and MCU Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Permission is given to non-commercial Apple user group newsletters and BBS and
only such to reprint this article provided it is reprinted in whole, unedited
and with this paragraph included. For updates to this article please visit the
Newton/PIE Forum on CompuServe by entering GO NEWTON or GO APPLEPIE at any of
CompuServe's exclamation mark prompts).
Revolutions may be fought on a battlefield. Or a revolution can occur
in the cloisters of the mind. Now we have a revolution that can be held in the
palm of your hand: The Newton MessagePad from Apple Computer Inc. I was
recently allowed to preview a MessagePad. The unit that I used for a few days
contained software and interface that was not the final (although near to
final) design and this should be borne in mind as it may change some of the
items mentioned herein. As new MessagePads are released I will update this
article accordingly. But, as a first look, here's what I saw.
POCKET PARADIGMS
The Newton MessagePad is Apple's first machine featuring Newton
technology and Newton Intelligence and is from their PIE or Personal
Interactive Electronics Division. There will be other Newtons in the near
future as well as other lines of machines rumored to be also released soon from
the PIE people. So, while the MessagePad is "a Newton" it is not "The Newton"
anymore then either a Quadra or a Centris is "The Macintosh." Rather, the
MessagePad is just one model of Newton and that is an important distinction to
make.
A Newton MessagePad is billed by Apple as a "communications assistant"
and is a handheld, pen-based device featuring such things as handwriting
recognition, connectivity, automatic helps and much more all in a slim package
that measures about 4" by 7" by 1". Of that measurement, the LCD screen area
upon which the user must write, as well as read from, measures 3" by 4.5".
Just below the screen are seven permanent icons. These icons are used
to access the MessagePad's various built-in programs and features. The Names
icon, when tapped, will take one to the Name File; the Dates icon to the
Datebook, Calendar and To-Do List areas; the Extras icon to areas involving
connectivity as well as an assortment of things from guided tours to setting
preferences; the Undo icon will undo the last two entries; the Find icon is
used to find ASCII strings in recognized type; the Assist icon takes one to the
Intelligent Assistant which helps to automate many processes; and in the center
is an icon composed of a large dot with an up-arrow above and a down-arrow
below to move through displayed material.
The MessagePad will also accept one PCMIA plug-in card (type 2.0) for
extra RAM memory or a modem (although too thin a slot to accept a PCMIA hard
disk drive). The plugged-in RAM card may be used as more memory for the
MessagePad and may also be used to backup the MessagePad and restore it in case
of need and third-party or expansion software may also be delivered on and run
off such a card.
RECOGNITION ROUTINES
Writing on the screen and testing out the handwriting and pen-based
interface of this Newton will be the first thing that the new user will try.
Such writing is carried out using a supplied "pen" that tucks neatly into a
built-in carrier on the side of the case. This special pen features a plastic
point that will not scratch the glass.
The Notepad area is always available onscreen and it's there most will
begin their experiments. In this section it's assumed that the user is in this
Notepad area. The MessagePad's handwriting recognition is turned on by touching
the pen to the mini-icon that toggles that feature (highlighting when it is
on).
Some will first scrawl a message such as "This is a test" on the
screen while others will immediately try to sign their names. Of those
first-timers who sign their names, users with names such as Bill Smith or Don
Jones will fare better then those with more unusual names. The MessagePad uses
its Newton Intelligence to decode handwriting into type and much of that
intelligence is dependent on internal word lists. But if you have a name like
Shapiro (which my MessagePad continued to recognize as "Fillipino" at first)
the problem is quickly remedied. Newton Intelligence is smart enough to learn
-- and quickly -- from the user.
When it happens that the MessagePad commits such a faux pas, the user
takes the pen and taps twice on the word. An onscreen list of words appears
with the unit's best guesses displayed in a menu fashion. If the word meant
appears as a secondary choice, the user just taps on the proper word and the
type changes to that corrected word. If, however, the MessagePad doesn't appear
to have a clue there is a picture of a keyboard and the user taps that to allow
the onscreen keyboard to appear. The pen is then used to press the letters (and
shift, space and other keys) on this virtual keyboard to enter the proper
translation. The odds are good that the next time such a word is entered that
the Newton Intelligence routines will know how to decode it. Some words may
take a few trainings.
Note that the more you use a MessagePad the more reliably your machine
will recognize your handwriting. Toward that end the settable preferences
choice in the Extras icon allows for handwriting practice. In that mode the
user is presented with words to write from the MessagePad's list. But the best
way to train a Newton MessagePad is to simply allow it to get to know you. As
you use it from day to day, if your routines are like most people's, you will
have a certain vocabulary that repeats and it won't be long before you
customize your own MessagePad to read your own handwriting.
The flip side to this is that it can be a bit difficult to share a
Newton between two or more users. When such sharing is done, there is a choice
to turn off this learning process so that if you must share your Newton with a
person who insists on writing far differently (or even a little differently)
from you it will not ruin all your training efforts. This is worth calling out
for the new MessagePad owner -- if you share your Newton, make sure that you
have checked the choice "Configure for guest user" in the Handwriting Styles
area of the Preferences menu in the Extras drawer.
While in the Preferences area the user can help the Newton along a bit
by looking at various styles of handwriting for each letter in the alphabet and
some punctuation. Each character is shown in a little mini-movie as to how the
pen would move in different handwritings to achieve that letter (this is in the
Letter Styles area). If you do not ever use a particular stroke sequence or
letter formation you can immediately tell the Newton. However, the automatic
learning function will update this area as you use the machine -- and the
automatic learning may actually be more reliable then entering this manually.
When handwritten text is recognized it will be displayed in a
user-settable typestyle. There are two typefaces available -- a "fancy" one
that is a light serif and weighted and a "simple" one which is sans-serif, not
weighted and monospaced. Typesizes are 9, 10, 12 and 18 points and styles are
plain, bold and underline. Word and letters may be individually selected (see
below) and styled.
Besides text recognition there is also shape recognition. Turning on
the shape-recognition icon means that the Newton can make shapes that are not
exactly drawn symmetrical, smooth them and close them. (Or just one or two such
functions depending on settable preferences). So it becomes easy for a
non-artist to draw perfect circles and curves.
A caveat here is to try to keep only one icon or the other turned on.
I found that if both text and shape recognition were on (and I assume this will
likely be true in the release version also) the MessagePad as you would suspect
had a difficult time distinguishing between small circles and the letter O and
the number 0 if entered alone and not embedded in text.
If text recognition and shape recognition are both turned off then the
Newton will save your handwriting as handwriting and not convert it to text --
Apple calls this "ink." This is faster and of course there are no recognition
errors to slow you down. On the other hand non-recognized text because it is a
compressed graphic takes up somewhat more memory then recognized text. More
importantly, only recognized text can be searched through for automatic finds
of word matches.
It was a little disappointing to me that the Newton Intelligence, in
at least this first MessagePad, will not allow handwriting to be recognized at
a later time. I would like to see a feature whereby blocks of handwritten text
already stored as graphics could be selected and then recognized. Apple tells
me that they tested such "deferred recognition" but that users did not like it.
Apple also ran into problems in that "we couldn't store the strokes and timing
info for too much ink because it used too much memory." But, who knows what the
future may hold?
I will reserve judgment as to how reliable the handwriting recognition
works or as to the speed of the same until I am able to work with a finalized
unit as I was specifically told by Apple the beta unit I was allowed to preview
had been far surpassed by the release version in those areas. This will be an
important consideration and I will report more fully on it when I have bought
my own production unit.
Selection is done as all things on a Newton with the pen. To select a
word, block of text and/or graphics the pen is held down and a line drawn
through or around the selection and then that selection highlights. Once
highlighted, the pen is held down on the block and then the block follows the
pen around and can thus be dragged to any position. It becomes very easy to,
for example, move words "into" a drawing to add and position graphics within a
memo. To place something in the clipboard you just drag the text to the screen
edge and then pull it down to copy it into something else.
Erasing an area is intuitively easy as you just draw a zig-zag
squiggly line through what you do not want and that material vanishes. Other
pen-based movement allows for rough editing such as drawing a proofreader's
"carat" or v-bumped line between words to add word spaces to insert new words
into a line of text.
The Notepad area allows for notes to be entered sequentially to the
memory limit of the MessagePad. To enter a new note a horizontal line is drawn
across the screen and a new note's header (showing the time and date the note
was first entered) appears. At that point the up- and down-arrow in the row of
permanent icons may be used to scroll from note to note. Or, the dot in the
middle of the arrows (that at least one Apple person called "the bellybutton")
may be penned and a linelist of notes' headers and first lines appear as an
overview and individual notes may so be immediately called onto the screen by
selecting them from that overview list. Notes may also be grouped into separate
user-named or included categories, filed and called up by category.
NAMES TO CONJURE WITH
The Names File is a formal database/addressbook that works on the idea
of cards as stored in a card catalog. Adding names is done by filling in an
info view area line by line. Each line is entered via text-recognition in a box
that pops up for each entry. These linefields include salutation, first name,
last name, title, company name, address, city, state, zip, country, EMAIL
address, four phone fields (which can individually be labeled as for home,
work, fax, other, car beeper, mobile or left as just being labeled phone) and
birthday. Fields cannot be added, rearranged as to order, nor labeled other
then as provided.
I found that this area of data entry was the only one in which I found
myself wishing for a real keyboard. When you are on the phone to a client who
blurts out their name is Mr. Slartibartfast or some such monicker you can bet
that the MessagePad is going to give you the silicon equivalent of saying
"Duh?" when you write it down the first time and you'll be facing the virtual
keyboard to hunt-and-pen the name into the field. As mentioned previously, this
is yet another reason why I hope to see the ability to turn off
text-recognition, write in a name or other information, and then have it
processed for recognition at a later time when virtual keyboards aren't going
to cramp your business style.
Once you do have the names and other fields entered (or brought in
from a Wizard, another Newton or a Mac -- see the connectivity section below)
the MessagePad allows you to work with these records in many different ways.
Each record may have with it an associated, freeform notes field. In
the notes field you can jot down information supplemental to what's in the card
fields. You can use the area to track phone calls, mark favorite orders, draw
graphic figures and so on.
A record may be shown onscreen as just an index-card style of card, or
a card can be shown with its note field. Or, the info view that was filled in
can be shown instead of having the information presented as a card. The cards
themselves can be shown in four different styles with the fields positioned
flush left or right, centered, or flush left with the phone number flush right
at the top.
Cards can be found by using the Find permanent icon which will search
cards for text or dates, or by scrolling the cards via the arrow icons or using
the bellybutton (I love that name) icon to call up a list or overview of cards
available.
Phone numbers may also be automatically dialed either through the
speaker or an attached modem.
Cards may be printed, faxed or sent EMAIL and this is further
discussed in the connectivity area of this review.
Although the capability of the MessagePad's Names File certainly is
within the bounds of expectation for an electronic personal organizer such as a
Sharp Wizard or Casio B.O.S.S. and in many ways exceeds those bounds, I found
myself wishing for more functionality. For example there was no way to delete a
set of cards. If, for example, a salesperson wants to delete all Chicago
clients she could call up such clients one by one by using the Find command on
the word Chicago. But each card found would have to be individually deleted.
This reviewer kept reaching for a "groups" command that simply wasn't there.
But Apple assures me that "There are at least two third-party 'contact manager'
type applications that will provide this capability."
I do think that the Names File will prove very useful to anyone who
simply needs an addressbook without many frills. Once the promised third-party
additions become available the Names File will become even more powerful.
THE DATEBOOK COMPLEAT
More then any other aspect of the MessagePad, the Dates area
demonstrates why -- leaving aside simple portability -- a pen-based interface
can be not just as good as mouse and/or keyboard -- but better. The
Datebook/Calendar and To-Do List section are what most advanced users are
likely to turn to when it comes time to demo the power of Newton.
When the Dates area is called up the user is in the main Calendar with
the present month and date shown. Arrow keys either side of the months name
allow months to be scrolled forward and backward in time. And a touch of the
pen to a date in the calendar area brings up that date's appointments. But then
there are additional, hidden commands which add much to this functionality.
Shortcuts (such as tapping the year) allow the user to see eight
calendar months at a glance, to see several days at one time, to select dates
either horizontally (sequential days) or vertically (certain day in each
selected week), to see a two-week agenda of appointments or to even see a
graphic representation of a month where appointments on each day are shown as
dark bands.
Scheduling and juggling appointments is easy. Just as selecting words
in a word processor became a way to show off the mouse on a Mac, this process
nicely shows off the pen interface on a Newton.
Appointments are written in at the hour they begin. The handwriting
recognition translates that to type. At the beginning of an appointment a
diamond appears which can be "pulled" out into a vertical line. The endtime of
the appointment is scheduled by pulling this line down the list of hours, Once
an appointment is scheduled, it's fast and simple to change. The pen is held
down to highlight the vertical line and then the line is dragged so as to begin
at a different hour and, if needed, the line is adjusted in length so as to
cover a different amount of time as well as a new position in the day. In a
like manner the appointment line can also be dragged between dates so as to
change not only the time but the day of the appointment. It's also possible to
have two appointments that overlap as the lines may be positioned indented from
simultaneously scheduled ones.
I have seen similar interfaces using the mouse but the pen in this
handheld format is more ergonomic, more intuitive and has a tremendous "gee
whiz" factor such as everyone usually feels the first time they move and resize
a window on a Mac.
Along with each appointment can be a notes field where the user can
add supplemental materials including graphics. A note field can also be a
stand-alone in that it's a note for the whole day or the calendar field showing
but not associated with any one particular appointment.
Alarms may also be scheduled as reminders for any appointment. The
alarm can be scheduled to go off minutes, hours, or days ahead or just when the
appointment comes due. The alarm triggers and onscreen message and can
optionally play a sound. Alarms can also be set to repeat. They can be made to
repeat every week, every other week, every month, every year, or on any one
week of each month.
Each datebook page of appointments also has a to-do list associated
with it. The to-do list allows you to schedule various items that you need to
do and to label them as to priority. Then, when you do finally do them, you may
check them off. When completed, they stay on that date but, if not completed,
they will roll over to the next day.
Information from the calendar may be printed, faxed and otherwise
shared but see the connectivity discussion for more information on these
features.
It's clear that the Datebook/Calendar may be a very big reason for
many people to go the Newton route.
CONNECTIVITY -- THE SERIAL STORY
On the side of the Newton MessagePad is a 9-pin serial port such as on
all current Macs and on modems that connect to the Mac. Using that connection
point I was quickly able to hook the Newton to my Localtalk network and have it
access my LaserWriter IINTX using dialog boxes on the Newton MessagePad similar
to those found in the Macintosh Chooser. The MessagePad happily printed cards,
appointments, notes and graphics on the networked laser printer.
But a lot of the connectivity ability of the Newton MessagePad and
other Newtons to come will depend on the true functionality of Apple's
announced Newton Connection software for Macs and PCs as well as third-party
solutions. I was unable to preview a "Printer Pack" but Apple tells me that
this will allow direct connection to "lots of printers" without connecting to
the Desktop and that this will be done by printer drivers in ROM residing on
the connector itself.
I have as yet been unable to personally work with Apple's Newton
Connection software or any third-party solutions. The following discussion is
based on my understanding of Apple's own press releases now in context of
having worked with the Newton MessagePad itself. As I obtain more experience
with these solution this article will be updated.
It appears from Apple's press releases (of 6/29/93) that the Newton
Connection software will allow a Newton to be connected to a Macintosh (or an
IBM PC) through the serial port. Once connected it will be possible, according
to Apple, to backup information from the Newton to the Mac's hard disk and then
restore it to the Newton.
The files will also be synchronized and this means that if information
is changed on either the Mac-resident file or the Newton-resident file the
older records will be updated when the machines are connected. Synchronization
at the record level (as opposed to file level) means that if you and your
secretary both add names to the address book then not just the most recent file
but the individual names will be synchronized.
The press release also states that their will be applications for both
the Mac and IBM PCs which will enable the Newton information as to notes,
letters, name cards, appointments and so forth not only to be synchronized but
also to be created and edited on the computer to be sent to the Newton and
vice-versa. Apple states it will also be possible to use the Newton Connection
software to move special and optional packages ranging from system enhancements
to applications from the Mac to the Newton.
There is further supposed to be released a Professional version that
will include translators so that users will be able to "directly share their
Newton information with popular Windows and Macintosh graphics,
word-processing, spreadsheet, database and PIM (Personal Information
Management) applications."
On the one hand this is very good news. On the other I expect hat many
users will be expecting a built-in capability but will find it to be offered as
an extra-cost option. It does not take too long using the Newton to realize
that if you have a Mac (or PC) it would be counterproductive and downright
wasteful not to connect them. Neither does it seem entirely a happy event that
such connectivity is a separate program rather then one of the permanent icons.
Apple is announcing pricing of the various connectivity kits at the launch.
If the majority of people who buy the Newton MessagePad own Macs and
IBM PCs it is likely that Apple will find themselves heavily criticized for
almost any price point by the majority of such demographic customers. On the
other hand, should the majority of MessagePad users turn out to be computerless
consumers such as statistically those who now buy the majority of Wizards and
B.O.S.S. organizers it might have been a wise move on Apple's part to keep this
separate from the main unit and thus hold down basic entry-level costs. Like so
much with the future of these machines -- we must wait and see.
Unfortunately, we must also wait, see, and pay if we want to make the
Newton all it should be by connecting it to our Macs.
There are also third party solutions on the way to add even more
functionality to the MessagePad's serial port. Such things as directly
downloading and uploading software on existing major networks (such as
Compuserve) might quickly become possible following the introduction and launch.
Likewise, following the launch it should be clearer as to Apple's own
plans for some sort of network involving the Newton. Many choices in the
MessagePad seem to indicate that it will be possible to automatically log onto
a dedicated network from Apple to send information between Newtons. According
to Apple spokespeople, "The MessagePad ROM contains a NewtonMail Client which
will work as soon as NewtonMail becomes operational later this fall."
There is also a choice in many of the menus to fax such things as
notes, cards, appointments and to-do lists to fax machines. The preliminary
manual stated to connect the Newton to a "Newton fax modem." Unfortunately such
was not available to me. I did attempt to use a Practical Peripherals
PM14400FXSA v.32bis and then a DoveFax modem but both failed -- the PP modem
with a "modem not supported" error message and the DoveFax with an even more
sinister "modem not found" dialog. I assume that the Newton modem does not use
Hayes-compatible commands or that some sort of driver software might be needed
for non-Newton modems. (Or, this could be attributed to the beta version
software in the Newton I was previewing.) Apple, however, has assured me that
drivers will be available for both external serial and PCMIA modems but could
not yet comment as to which exact modems will be supported.
Again, as more information becomes available watch for future versions
of this article.
CONNECTIVITY -- BEAM ME ABOARD
Newton owners will soon be beaming around the universe -- or at least
around the universe of Newton MessagePads. Two Newtons (or a Sharp Wizard
series 9000) may be connected via infrared beams instead of a cable over which
they can share information.
When two Newtons are placed head-to-head (at a range of approximately
one meter) such things as notes, cards, appointments and to-do lists may be
"beamed" from one Newton to another (or the Wizard series 9000). A nice touch
is that incoming beams may be set to be automatically received or that they
need confirmation. If a need for confirmation is checked then incoming beams
are stored in an area called the In Box and may be checked later and then moved
to the main area of the MessagePad.
Just as the In Box stores incoming material (beamed or faxed or
serially connected) the Out Box will store outgoing material. It is thus
possible to set up a session ahead of time on your MessagePad for later
information exchange when the other Newton is present or when the connection
will be made. Both the In and Out boxes fully list their contents and the
status of those contents.
AN ABLE ASSISTANT
The Newton's permanent icon called Assist when penned will call up the
Intelligent Assistant program. The Assistant features a dialog box with a
pulldown menu and one line. On the line you write text which is acted upon by
the command you choose from the menu.
The commands in the Assistant's menu allow the user to schedule, find,
remind, send, fax, print, call and otherwise act upon whatever information has
been entered. For example, to call a phone number you would write the phone
number and then choose call from the Assistant's "Let Me" menu -- forming the
string "Let Me Call 555-1212" and the number would be dialed via the modem or
speaker as set in your preferences.
But an interesting thing about this is that you do not have to be
actually within the Assist area. If you are in the Notepad and you type "Call
555-1212" and highlight the command line, then pen down on Assist the Newton
will present you with the same dialog boxes to put through your call as if you
were running the Assist program directly.
Likewise the Intelligent Assistant makes it simple to do such things
as schedule appointments, add to your to-do list, print or fax notes and much
more all without the modality of having to be in one special program to do it
(although the special program is there and with additional helps should you
choose it). So just write in the Notepad "Buy Dog Food" and highlight it and
the dialog box that results will have it added immediately to you to-do list.
(Or write "Buy AT&T" -- your option).
In some respects the Intelligent Assistant rather points the way
toward the future of Newton and PIE technologies. The idea is for these
intelligent peripherals not just to act as pen and paper might, or even as you
might expect a desktop computer to perform. Rather, the goal seems to be to
have assistance in your daily life at your beck and call ready to respond to
simple English commands to accomplish relatively complicated but omnipresent
daily chores.
The Newton MessagePad's personal assistant might not be a
human-looking, robotic servant ready to respond with a happy "Yes, Master!" as
it leaps to do your bidding but it may well be the first step down a long road
toward something far more real, far more achievable, far more revolutionary.
EXTRAS, WE HAVE EXTRAS!
In the Extras permanent icon (or the Extras "drawer') are accessed
some of the areas we have already spoken about such as the In and Out Boxes,
the computer and Sharp connectivity controls, the setting of personal
preferences and type styles. But there's much more included as well such as the
Tables area, the Calculator and Time Zones as well as onscreen slide controls
to set the MessagePad's volume level and contrast adjustment as well as a
visual indication of remaining battery life.
The Tables are basically spreadsheet templates that are not called
spreadsheets. Metric conversion, currency exchange, loan payments, net present
value and a capital asset pricing model are the included templates. The user
just has to do such things as write in various variables to have the MessagePad
instantly display the results.
There's even a game included that makes spending a few hours writing
words so as to train the recognition routines to your handwriting fun.
IN CONCLUSION
The Newton had to be something special to justify the hype and to
serve as a marker for the beginning of a whole new technology from Apple. The
new pen interface works well overall and, in some areas, proves that the pen
can be far mightier then the keyboard and even a bit stronger then a mouse for
certain uses.
There is no doubt that future Newtons and other releases from the PIE
folks will be more powerful, offer more bang for the buck and feature far more
goodies -- just as the Macintosh 128K has been somewhat surpassed by the Quadra
950! The pioneers who buy a Newton MessagePad in these early days will, and
perhaps not in a very long timeframe, see it surpassed by other machines from
Apple.
So, should you wait to buy a Newton?
In my opinion -- Don't Wait!
I think the time to buy is now because if you can use the Newton
MessagePad's capabilities then it will serve you better then any other such
organizer presently on the market.
1994 is going to be a lot like the heady days of 1984 when the
Macintosh was released. Get in now on the thrill and challenge of a whole new
technology, a new way to think about your life and how to schedule it. You
won't be able to completely enjoy the future without living in today.
Today it's the Newton MessagePad that will deliver tomorrow into your
grasp.
------- End of forwarded message -------
