[9733] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3327 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Aug 3 14:05:30 1998
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 11:00:50 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 3 Aug 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 3327
Today's topics:
Re: $form_data question bfredett@my-dejanews.com
Re: $form_data question (M.J.T. Guy)
Re: ActivePerl 5.005 and missing Win32:Ole <gcb@slip.net>
Re: ActivePerl 5.005 and missing Win32:Ole grehom@my-dejanews.com
ANNOUNCE: Free Perl Books for 5.005 <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
ANNOUNCE: Parse::Yapp 0.14 released <desar@club-internet.fr>
ANNOUNCE: Statistics::MaxEntropy-0.6 <terdoest@cs.utwente.nl>
Re: calling exe (Andrew M. Langmead)
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux (David Adler)
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux <jdporter@min.net>
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux (Abigail)
Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux (Abigail)
Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Mar 98 (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:53:46 GMT
From: bfredett@my-dejanews.com
Subject: Re: $form_data question
Message-Id: <6q4mea$97n$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <6q4d4l$t85$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
bfredett@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I am trying to set this up in a loop such as:
>
> for($i=1,$i<=$total,$i++) { # $total is set earlier
> $new_data = $form_data{'editcol$i'};
> } /|\
> |
Thanks for the pointers.
After alot of reading and more reading, I was able to figure out and correct
the problem.
Thanks again.
Brian
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------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 16:39:53 GMT
From: mjtg@cus.cam.ac.uk (M.J.T. Guy)
Subject: Re: $form_data question
Message-Id: <6q4p4p$rgi$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>
<bfredett@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>Greetings.
>
>I have a form with several text fields. These fields are named
>editcol1,editcol2,editcol3 ... and so on.
>
>I want to check if these fields are blank, if they are not then the value of
>$new_data will equal the value of $form_data{'editcoln'} ... where n is the
>number 1,2,3...
>
>I am trying to set this up in a loop such as:
>
>for($i=1,$i<=$total,$i++) { # $total is set earlier
> $new_data = $form_data{'editcol$i'};
>} /|\
> |
> |
>Most likely the trouble is ---| I can't get the $i to
>work inside the $form_data.
Look up the difference between single and double quotes in
perldoc perlop
Mike Guy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:25:07 GMT
From: Gary Bartlett <gcb@slip.net>
Subject: Re: ActivePerl 5.005 and missing Win32:Ole
Message-Id: <6q4o93$bo7$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
In article <35C45093.76291208@hp.com>,
Pep Mico <pep_mico@hp.com> wrote:
> I just downloaded the latest release of Activestate, "ActivePerl" 5.005
> modules. But all my scripts that has the entry USE Win32:OLE does't
> work.
> After a little investigation I've seen that OLE.PM file are not
> included. It's normal? Should I change my
> Scripts or is a problem with the distribution file?
I suspect that you need to use PPM to install the Ole package.
However, as of this morning, ActiveState's PPM server appears
to be broken, as does their bug reporting site.
Gary
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http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:14:13 GMT
From: grehom@my-dejanews.com
Subject: Re: ActivePerl 5.005 and missing Win32:Ole
Message-Id: <6q4r55$g0r$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
I got just the same error - the funny thing was the program I was trying to
run with ActivePerl 5.005 was their Perl Debugger!! Not greatly amused
especially since the 5.00402 core release worked just fine with and without
the debugger. Come on Active .... test your software before you waste
thousands of man hours
In article <35C45093.76291208@hp.com>,
Pep Mico <pep_mico@hp.com> wrote:
>
> --------------DF4C0EC978E0358E6222E419
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded the latest release of Activestate, "ActivePerl" 5.005
> modules. But all my scripts that has the entry USE Win32:OLE does't
> work.
> After a little investigation I've seen that OLE.PM file are not
> included. It's normal? Should I change my
> Scripts or is a problem with the distribution file?
>
> To fix this problem I installed back previous release, a Beta release
> 5.00471 that works correctly.
> ================================================================
> This is my current version (perl -v)
> This is perl, version 5.005 built for MSWin32-x86-object
>
> Copyright 1987-1998, Larry Wall
>
> Binary build provided by ActiveState Tool Corp.
> http://www.ActiveState.com
> Built 10:56:51 Jul 28 1998
> ====================================================
> And this is the error that produces a file that only contais the
> following line "use Win32::OLE"
>
> Can't locate Win32/ole.pm in @INC (@INC contains:
> C:\Perl\5.005\lib/MSWin32-x86-object C:\Perl\5.005\lib
> C:\Perl\site\5.005\lib/MSWin32-x86-object C:\Perl\site\5.005\lib
> C:\Perl\site\lib .) at C:\USERS\DEFAULT\activeperl\sample.pl line 2.
> BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at
> C:\USERS\DEFAULT\activeperl\sample.pl line 2.
>
> Regards
> pep_mico@hp.com
>
> --------------DF4C0EC978E0358E6222E419
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML>
>
> <P>Hi,
>
> <P>I just downloaded the latest release of Activestate, "ActivePerl" 5.005
> modules. But all my scripts that has the entry USE Win32:OLE does't work.
> <BR>After a little investigation I've seen that OLE.PM file are not included.
> It's normal? Should I change my
> <BR>Scripts or is a problem with the distribution file?
>
> <P>To fix this problem I installed back previous release, a Beta release
> 5.00471 that works correctly.
> <BR>================================================================
> <BR><B>This is my current version (perl -v)</B>
> <BR>This is perl, version 5.005 built for MSWin32-x86-object
>
> <P>Copyright 1987-1998, Larry Wall
>
> <P>Binary build provided by ActiveState Tool Corp. <A
HREF="http://www.ActiveState.com">http://www.ActiveState.com</A>
> <BR>Built 10:56:51 Jul 28 1998
> <BR>====================================================
> <BR><B>And this is the error that produces a file that only contais the
> following line "use Win32::OLE"</B>
>
> <P>Can't locate Win32/ole.pm in @INC (@INC contains: C:\Perl\5.005
\lib/MSWin32-x86-object
> C:\Perl\5.005\lib C:\Perl\site\5.005\lib/MSWin32-x86-object C:\Perl\site\5.005
\lib
> C:\Perl\site\lib .) at C:\USERS\DEFAULT\activeperl\sample.pl line 2.
> <BR>BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at C:\USERS\DEFAULT\activeperl\sample.pl
> line 2.
>
> <P>Regards
> <BR>pep_mico@hp.com
> <BR> </HTML>
>
> --------------DF4C0EC978E0358E6222E419--
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:54:33 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Free Perl Books for 5.005
Message-Id: <6q4tgp$mb3$1@news.neta.com>
I am pleased to announce the long-awaited release (last update: 15 months
ago) of the complete documentation, updated for the the 5.005 release
of Perl. The postscript version is designed to be printed and bound
as a complete book, preferably on a double-sided printer considering
the length. The text version is designed to be searched from within a
pager, such as less.
Here are the relevant URLs:
Complete Perl Documentation (1256 pages as postscript)
http://language.perl.com/info/PerlDoc-5.005_02.ps.gz (1,774k)
Table of Contexts (65 pages as postscript, roman page numbers)
http://language.perl.com/info/PerlTOC-5.005_02.ps.gz (52k)
Table of Contexts, two-up (33 pages as postscript)
http://language.perl.com/info/PerlTOC-2up-5.005_02.ps.gz (56k)
Complete Perl Documentation (1682 pages as text)
http://language.perl.com/info/PerlDoc-5.005_02.txt.gz (941k)
Table of Contexts (66 pages as text)
http://language.perl.com/info/PerlTOC-5.005_02.txt.gz (31k)
These should make their way to their normal CPAN homes over the next
three days, but I thought you'd like to know about them now.
Enjoy.
--tom
--
GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
--Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:53:40 GMT
From: Francois Desarmenien <desar@club-internet.fr>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Parse::Yapp 0.14 released
Message-Id: <6q4tf4$mar$1@news.neta.com>
I am pleased to announce that Parse::Yapp alpha release 0.14 has been
uploaded to CPAN. It is on its way and should be available soon on
CPAN mirror sites.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Parse::Yapp - Parse::Yapp Yet Another Perl Parser compiler
Compiles yacc-like LALR grammars to generate Perl OO parser modules.
COPYRIGHT
(c) 1998 Francois Desarmenien, all rights reserved.
(see the Copyright section in Yapp.pm for usage and distribution rights)
IMPORTANT NOTES
THIS IS ALPHA SOFTWARE.
Though it has been tested a lot, there are probably bugs in it ;-)
I need FEEDBACK for every problem or bug you could encounter so I can
fix
them in the next release. Comments are welcome too.
But I also need FEEDBACK if you use it and have it work fine so I can
step
to beta and production releases. Just drop me a mail.
The Parse::Yapp pod section is the main documentation and it assumes
you already have a good knowledge of yacc. If not, I suggest the GNU
Bison manual which is a very good tutorial to LALR parsing and yacc's
grammar syntax.
The documentation is only a draft and should be rewritten (I think).
Any help on this issue would be very welcome.
DESCRIPTION
This is the alpha release 0.14 of the Parse::Yapp parser generator.
It lets you create Perl OO fully reentrant LALR(1) parser
modules (see the Yapp.pm pod pages for more details) and has
been designed to be functionnaly as close as possible to yacc,
but using the full power of Perl and opened for enhancements.
REQUIREMENTS
Requires perl5.004 or better :)
It is written only in Perl, with standard distribution modules,
so you don't need any compiler nor special modules.
INSTALLATION
perl Makefile.PL
make
make test
make install
WARRANTY
This software comes with absolutly NO WARRANTY of any kind.
I just hope it can be useful.
FEEDBACK
Send feedback, comments and bug reports to:
Francois Desarmenien
desar@club-internet.fr
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:54:47 GMT
From: Hugo ter Doest <terdoest@cs.utwente.nl>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Statistics::MaxEntropy-0.6
Message-Id: <6q4th7$mb4$1@news.neta.com>
Uploaded to CPAN:
Statistics::MaxEntropy
A module for inducing maximum entropy log-linear probability
distributions. It needs Bit::Vector, and lots of CPU time :-)
NAME
MaxEntropy - Perl5 module for Maximum Entropy Modeling
SYNOPSIS
use Statistics::MaxEntropy;
# debugging messages; default 0
$Statistics::MaxEntropy::debug = 0;
# maximum number of iterations for IIS; default 100
$Statistics::MaxEntropy::NEWTON_max_it = 100;
# minimal distance between new and old x for Newton's method;
# default 0.001
$Statistics::MaxEntropy::NEWTON_min = 0.001;
# maximum number of iterations for Newton's method; default 100
$Statistics::MaxEntropy::KL_max_it = 100;
# minimal distance between new and old x; default 0.001
$Statistics::MaxEntropy::KL_min = 0.001;
# initialisation for GIS, IIS, or FI
Statistics::MaxEntropy::init($events_file,
$parameters_file,
$candidates_file);
# Generalised Iterative Scaling
Statistics::MaxEntropy::GIS();
# Improved Iterative Scaling
Statistics::MaxEntropy::IIS();
# Feature Induction algorithm
Statistics::MaxEntropy::FI($nr_candidates_to_add,
$iterative_scaler);
# writes new events, candidates, and parameters files
Statistics::MaxEntropy::done($new_events_file,
$new_parameters_file,
$new_candidates_file,
$information_file);
DESCRIPTION
This module is an implementation of the Generalised and Improved
Iterative Scaling (GIS, IIS) algorithms and the Feature
Induction (FI) algorithm as defined in (Darroch and Ratcliff
1972) and (Della Pietra et al. 1997). The purpose of the scaling
algorithms is to find the maximum entropy distribution given a
set of events and (optionally) an initial distribution. Also a
set of candidate features may be specified; then the FI
algorithm may be applied to find and add the candidate
feature(s) that give the largest `gain' in terms of Kullback
Leibler divergence when it is added to the current set of
features.
Events are specified in terms of a set of feature functions
(properties) f_1...f_k that map each event to {0,1}: an event is
a string of bits. In addition of each event its frequency is
given. We assume the event space to have a probability
distribution that can be described by
p(x) = 1/Z e^{sum_i alpha_i f_i(x)}
The module requires the `Bit::Vector' module by Steffen Beyer.
It can be obtained from CPAN just like this module.
VARIABLES
* $Statistics::MaxEntropy::debug
If set to "1", lots of debug information, and intermediate
results will be output. Default: `0'
* $Statistics::MaxEntropy::NEWTON_max_it
Sets the maximum number of iterations in Newton's method.
Newton's method is applied to find the new parameters
\alpha_i of the features f_i. Default: `100'.
* $Statistics::MaxEntropy::NEWTON_min
Sets the minimum difference between x' and x in Newton's
method; if either the maximum number of iterations is
reached or the difference between x' and x is small enough,
the iteration is stopped. Default: `0.001'.
* $Statistics::MaxEntropy::KL_max_it
Sets the maximum number of iterations applied in the IIS
algorithm. Default: `100'.
* $Statistics::MaxEntropy::KL_min
Sets the minimum difference between KL divergences of two
distributions in the IIS algorithm; if either the maximum
number of iterations is reached or the difference between
the divergences is enough, the iteration is stopped.
Default: `0.001'.
FUNCTIONS
* Statistics::MaxEntropy::init($events_file, $parameters_file,
$candidates_file);
The events file is required. The candidate and initial
parameter files are optional. If the initial parameter file
is specified as the empty string then random parameters from
[0,1] are chosen.
* Statistics::MaxEntropy::GIS();
Calls the Generalised Iterative Scaling algorithm. See
(Darroch and Ratcliff 1972).
* Statistics::MaxEntropy::IIS();
Calls the Improved Iterative Scaling algorithm. If no events
were loaded or generated, your program exits. See (Della
Pietra et al. 1997).
* Statistics::MaxEntropy::FI($nr_candidates_to_add,
$iterative_scaler);
Calls the Feature Induction algorithm. The parameter
`$nr_candidates_to_add' is for the number of candidates it
should add. If this number is greater than the number of
candidates, all candidates are added. If it is not
specified, it "1" is used. The parameter `$iterative_scaler'
can be used to provide one of scaling algorithm `GIS' or
`IIS'. The references to the sub's should be used as
follows:
$iterative_scaler = \&GIS;
$nr_candidates_to_add = 2;
FI($nr_candidates_to_add, $iterative_scaler);
If it is not specified, the improved algorithm is used.
* Statistics::MaxEntropy::done($new_events_file,
$new_parameters_file, $new_candidates_file,
$information_file);
All parameters are optional. The candidate numbers that were
added are printed to the information file. The new events
file contains the events extended with the new features, the
new candidates file contains the set of candidates minus the
candidates added. To the distribution file the new
parameters are printed. The information file is used to
print the indices of the candidates that were added to.
Before a new call of `init', calling
`Statistics::MaxEntropy::done' is a good thing to do.
SYNTAX OF INPUT/OUTPUT FILES
Lines that start with a `#' and empty lines are ignored.
Below we give the syntax of in and output files.
EVENTS FILE (input/output)
Syntax of the event file (n features, and m events); the
following holds for features:
* each line is an event;
* each column represents a feature function; the co-domain of a
feature function is {0,1};
* no space between feature columns;
* constant features (i.e. columns that are completely 0 or 1) are
forbidden;
* 2 or more events should be specified (this is in fact a
consequence of the previous requirement;
The frequency of each event precedes the feature columns.
Features are indexed from right to left. This is a consequence
of how `Bit::Vector' reads bit strings. Each `f_ij' is a bit and
`freq_i' a float in the following schema:
name_n <tab> name_n-1 ... name_2 <tab> name_1 <newline>
freq_1 <white> f_1n ... f_13 f_12 f_11 <newline>
. .
. .
. .
freq_i <white> f_in ... f_i3 f_i2 f_i1 <newline>
. .
. .
. .
freq_m <white> f_mn ... f_m3 f_m2 f_m1
(m events, n features)
PARAMETERS FILE (input/output)
Syntax of the initial parameters file; one parameter per line:
par_1 <newline>
.
.
.
par_i <newline>
.
.
.
par_n
n features, the first line of the file contains the number of
features. The syntax of the output distribution is the same. The
alternative procedure for saving parameters to a file
`write_parameters_with_names' writes files that have the
following syntax
n <newline>
name_1 <tab> par_1 <newline>
.
.
.
name_i <tab> par_i <newline>
.
.
.
name_n <tab> par_n <newline>
bitmask
where bitmask can be used to tell other programs what features
to use in computing probabilities.
CANDIDATES FILE (input)
The syntax of the candidate feature file is more or less the
same as that for the events file:
* each line is an event (events specified in the same order as the
events file);
* each column is a feature;
* constant feature functions are forbidden;
* values are 0 or 1;
* no space between features;
`f_ij' are bits:
name_c <tab> name_c-1 ... name_2 <tab> name_1 <newline>
f_1c ... f_13 f_12 f_11 <newline>
.
.
.
f_ic ... f_i3 f_i2 f_i1 <newline>
.
.
.
f_mc ... f_m3 f_m2 f_m1
(m events, c candidate features)
INFO FILE (output)
The indices of the candidates added to the field, one per line.
Bit strings are always indexed right to left. Candidates that
are added to the event space are attached at the `end' of the
bit vector, i.e. to the left.
BUGS
* It's slow.
* `Statistics::MaxEntropy' communicates through files mainly. The
reason for is a practical one: for my own purposes I needed
communication through files; I'm using the module for large
event bases (corpora), that is why.
* The implementation is not object-oriented. Some time in the
future I will change this (so beware). By then, it should be
possible to say
$event_space = Statistics::
MaxEntropy->new_events($events_file);
$distr = Statistics::
MaxEntropy->new_distr($parameters_file);
$candidates = Statistics::
MaxEntropy->new_candidates($candidates_file);
$event_space->FI(\&IIS,
$nr_candidates_to_add,
\$distr,
\$candidates);
$event_space->done($n_events_file);
$distr->done($n_parameters_file);
$candidates->done($n_candidates);
ENVIRONMENT
No environment variables are used.
AUTHOR
SEE ALSO
the perl(1) manpage, the Bit::Vector manpage, and the POSIX
manpage.
DIAGNOSTICS
The module dies with an appropriate message if
* it cannot open a specified events file;
* if you specified a constant feature function (in the events file
or the candidates file);
* if `Statistics::MaxEntropy::FI' is called and no candidates are
given;
* if `Statistics::MaxEntropy:IIS' is called and no events are
given;
* if the events file, candidates file, or the parameters file is
not consistent; possible causes are (a.o.): insufficient or
too many features for some event; inconsistent candidate
lines; insufficient, or to many event lines in the
candidates file.
REFERENCES
* (Darroch and Ratcliff 1972) J. Darroch and D. Ratcliff,
Generalised Iterative Scaling for log-linear models, Ann.
Math. Statist., 43, 1470-1480, 1972.
* (Jaynes 1983) E.T. Jaynes, Papers on probability, statistics,
and statistical physics. Ed.: R.D. Rosenkrantz. Kluwer
Academic Publishers, 1983.
* (Jaynes 1997) E.T. Jaynes, Probability theory: the logic of
science, 1997, unpublished manuscript.
URL:http://omega.math.albany.edu:8008/JaynesBook.html
* (Della Pietra, Della Pietra and Lafferty 1997) Stephen Della
Pietra, Vincent Della Pietra, and John Lafferty, Inducing
features of random fields, In: Transactions Pattern Analysis
and Machine Intelligence, 19(4), April 1997.
COPYRIGHT
`Statistics::MaxEntropy' comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY and
may be copied only under the terms of the GNU Library General
Public License (version 2, or later), which may be found in the
distribution.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:31:50 GMT
From: aml@world.std.com (Andrew M. Langmead)
Subject: Re: calling exe
Message-Id: <Ex4JD2.Fs8@world.std.com>
"Brad Legge" <blegge@iafrica.com> writes:
>Can anyone tell me whether there is a limit to length of the argument that
>you can send to an exe program as.
The limit for a particular operating system should be in the C header
file limits.h.
>$var = 'miapi @array';
(I'm assuming these are mangled back quotes.)
>Is there another more efficient way of calling an exe with arguments like
>this and getting a return value.
Can you modifiy "miapi"? If so, can you have it give its arguments as
standard input instead of on the command line? (If so, then you might
have the bidirectional pipe problem mentioned in the FAQ, but since
your program will take all of its arguments as input before writing
its output, deadlocking shouldn't be a problem. Unless you use use a
temporary file.)
use POSIX;
$tmpfile = POSIX::tmpnam();
open FILE, ">$tmpfile" or die;
print FILE, "@array\n";
close FILE;
$var = `mapi $tmpfile`;
unlink $tmpfile;
--
Andrew Langmead
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 13:01:07 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <6q4caj$gvp$2@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc, mjd@op.net (Mark-Jason Dominus) writes:
:Either way, I don't understand why it is
:necessary to state in advance that all such articles will be
:rejected.
Why do we have `English-only' laws in various places around America, or
`French-only' laws in others? Unabashed cultural imperialism is my take,
something that has no business in law.
--tom
--
OK, enough hype.
--Larry Wall in the perl man page
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:12:28 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <8cyat6kn0t.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Mark-Jason" == Mark-Jason Dominus <mjd@op.net> writes:
Mark-Jason> In article <8cr9yzlzsy.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>,
Mark-Jason> Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>> 3) Your post must be completely non-commercial,
Mark-Jason> I am afraid that without a clearer definition of
Mark-Jason> `commercial', you are going to continue to have the same
Mark-Jason> sorts of problems that you had before. For example, you
Mark-Jason> rejected Jon Orwant's announcement of the Obfuscated Perl
Mark-Jason> Contest. I would not have considered this commercial, and
Mark-Jason> I think many other people would have agreed.
And yet, TPJ is not a non-profit organization. Although the contest
is run for free, and the results are available freely on the net, it's
still substantially sponsored by TPJ, and therefore enhances TPJ's
public image and therefore profitability in the long run.
All it would take is a Perl Monger or a TPI board member (of which Jon
Orwant is indeed a member, fancy that) to get the organization to
bless the posting. That's all I'm asking for. That frees me from
accepting Jon's wonderful post but then being sued for rejecting "The
Anti-Perl Journal"'s "weirdest perl you've ever seen" contest.
Mark-Jason> This, for me, was the problem: We seemed to have very
Mark-Jason> different understanding of what would constitute
Mark-Jason> `commerce'. Your new guidelines do not address this at
Mark-Jason> all.
Sorry, I thought 'commercial' was pretty clear. Please don't turn
me into a lawyer. :)
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:13:28 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <8cu33ukmz5.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Ronald" == Ronald J Kimball <rjk@coos.dartmouth.edu> writes:
Ronald> Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>> 3) Your post must be completely non-commercial, *unless* you have the
>> sponsorship of a recognized non-profit organization (like Perl
>> Mongers, The Perl Institute, or Usenix/LISA). Commercial posts
>> will be tagged in the subject line as [COM].
Ronald> How do you determine whether the poster has "sponsorship"?
That's pretty simple. I know these people. :) I can ask them.
Ronald> For example,
Ronald> what would you do if an O'Reilly employee submitted an announcement
Ronald> about the Perl Conference?
Reject it, unless it was TPI blessed.
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:15:33 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <8cpveikmvo.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Abigail" == Abigail <abigail@fnx.com> writes:
Abigail> ++ 4) Perl code *must* reside in the CPAN. Non-CPAN code announcements
Abigail> ++ will be rejected, even if sponsored as a commercial post. (See
Abigail> ++ http://www.perl.com/CPAN/modules/04pause.html for details on how to
Abigail> ++ submit items to the CPAN.) Postings consisting of source code will
Abigail> ++ be rejected. (If it's good enough to post, it's good enough to go
Abigail> ++ into the CPAN.)
Abigail> I don't think residence on CPAN should be a requirement. The
Abigail> group should be about announcements about Perl and its
Abigail> community - not a CPAN announcement group. I now hardly read
Abigail> clpa because about all I find there are announcements of new
Abigail> uploads on CPAN.
The CPAN is where the "community" archives stuff. If you don't want
it in the CPAN, I can argue that you're not truly sharing.
Abigail> ++ 7) Articles must be in English, and have a reply-able email address.
Abigail> Do we really need a language restriction, and if so, why English?
Abigail> It's not the person doing the announcement fault that others can't
Abigail> read German or Spanish, is it? Restriction to English doesn't go well
Abigail> with "worldwide".
The "worldwide" language of technology is English. It happens to be the
only human language I speak, so I lucked out there. There are regional
non-English Perl groups that can properly hold announcements in other
languages. I'd like to restrict CLPA to articles I can read.
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:16:12 GMT
From: dha@panix.com (David Adler)
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <6q4r8s$rrk@news1.panix.com>
On Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:25:49 GMT, Gary L. Burnore
<gburnore@databasix.com> wrote:
>On 3 Aug 1998 15:11:28 GMT, in article <6q4jv0$do1$1@client3.news.psi.net>,
>abigail@fnx.com (Abigail) wrote:
>>Sounds assymmetric to me. Why not have all English posts accompanied
>>by a Spanish translation? ;)
>>
>
>Why Spanish? Why not one of the other languages of the world? Why not ALL of
>the languages of this world? (I don't know any languages from out of this
>world so...>
Perhaps everyone should post in Esperanto? :-)
--
David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"Shrink your opponents' heads before they shrink yours!" - The
Bomboras
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:16:36 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <8clnp6kmtw.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "birgitt" == birgitt <birgitt@my-dejanews.com> writes:
birgitt> P.S. I am confused about the "non-commercial" requirement for any post.
birgitt> Are commercial posts now allowed and the moderator picks the ones
birgitt> worth to be mentioned and then posts them with the [COM] tag ?
birgitt> How does that fit with the requirement *not* to post any commercial
birgitt> announcement ? If the "no commercial posts allowed"-request is
birgitt> obeyed by, no [COM] tagged post should come up.
birgitt> What don't I understand ?
non-commercial - I can approve, no [COM]
commercial, must be sponsored, *then* I can approve with [COM]
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:18:10 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <8chfzukmra.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Bbirthisel" == Bbirthisel <bbirthisel@aol.com> writes:
Bbirthisel> People expect code on CPAN to met some threshold of
Bbirthisel> quality and functionality. Code in alpha test or in rapid
Bbirthisel> flux won't necessarily achieve that. Perhaps cpla is the
Bbirthisel> wrong forum (I limited alpha posts to a users list) - but
Bbirthisel> we should then designate a more suitable way to announce
Bbirthisel> "not ready for prime time" code in search of reviewers.
CLPA is a wide forum. I've seen announcements to underpowered websites
that got swamped. If something's in CLPA, it should be in CPAN for that
sort of protection.
Also, CLPA is archived in the CPAN. If there's a pointer, it should
be to something as permanent as CPAN, not some transitory web site.
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 17:30:44 GMT
From: John Porter <jdporter@min.net>
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <35C5F44B.79E8@min.net>
Gary L. Burnore wrote:
>
> Why Spanish? Why not one of the other languages of the world? Why not ALL of
> the languages of this world? (I don't know any languages from out of this
> world so...>
How's this: the moderator adds a link at the bottom of each post
(added via a perl script, of course) which invokes AltaVista's
BabelFish appropriately so as to give a desired translation.
--
John Porter
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:44:29 GMT
From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail)
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <6q4stt$fps$1@client3.news.psi.net>
Randal Schwartz (merlyn@stonehenge.com) wrote on MDCCXCVIII September
MCMXCIII in <URL: news:8cyat6kn0t.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>:
++ >>>>> "Mark-Jason" == Mark-Jason Dominus <mjd@op.net> writes:
++
++ Mark-Jason> In article <8cr9yzlzsy.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>,
++ Mark-Jason> Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
++ >> 3) Your post must be completely non-commercial,
++
++ Mark-Jason> I am afraid that without a clearer definition of
++ Mark-Jason> `commercial', you are going to continue to have the same
++ Mark-Jason> sorts of problems that you had before. For example, you
++ Mark-Jason> rejected Jon Orwant's announcement of the Obfuscated Perl
++ Mark-Jason> Contest. I would not have considered this commercial, and
++ Mark-Jason> I think many other people would have agreed.
++
++ And yet, TPJ is not a non-profit organization. Although the contest
++ is run for free, and the results are available freely on the net, it's
++ still substantially sponsored by TPJ, and therefore enhances TPJ's
++ public image and therefore profitability in the long run.
If I make a module and put it on CPAN, it will enhance my public image
and therefore it will be profitable to me in the long run.
Would that be commercial as well?
++ All it would take is a Perl Monger or a TPI board member (of which Jon
++ Orwant is indeed a member, fancy that) to get the organization to
++ bless the posting. That's all I'm asking for. That frees me from
++ accepting Jon's wonderful post but then being sued for rejecting "The
++ Anti-Perl Journal"'s "weirdest perl you've ever seen" contest.
Well, why should you want to reject it anyway?
++ Mark-Jason> This, for me, was the problem: We seemed to have very
++ Mark-Jason> different understanding of what would constitute
++ Mark-Jason> `commerce'. Your new guidelines do not address this at
++ Mark-Jason> all.
++
++ Sorry, I thought 'commercial' was pretty clear. Please don't turn
++ me into a lawyer. :)
If you reject the announcement of the Obfuscated Perl Contest because
it's commercial, I don't think your definition is very clear.
Abigail
--
perl5.004 -wMMath::BigInt -e'$^V=new Math::BigInt+qq;$^F$^W783$[$%9889$^F47$|88768$^W596577669$%$^W5$^F3364$[$^W$^F$|838747$[8889739$%$|$^F673$%$^W98$^F76777$=56;;$^U=substr($]=>$|=>5)*(q.25..($^W=@^V))=>do{print+chr$^V%$^U;$^V/=$^U}while$^V!=$^W'
------------------------------
Date: 3 Aug 1998 17:56:04 GMT
From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail)
Subject: Re: comp.lang.perl.announce redux
Message-Id: <6q4tjk$g4h$1@client3.news.psi.net>
Randal Schwartz (merlyn@stonehenge.com) wrote on MDCCXCVIII September
MCMXCIII in <URL: news:8cpveikmvo.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>:
++ >>>>> "Abigail" == Abigail <abigail@fnx.com> writes:
++
++ Abigail> I don't think residence on CPAN should be a requirement. The
++ Abigail> group should be about announcements about Perl and its
++ Abigail> community - not a CPAN announcement group. I now hardly read
++ Abigail> clpa because about all I find there are announcements of new
++ Abigail> uploads on CPAN.
++
++ The CPAN is where the "community" archives stuff. If you don't want
++ it in the CPAN, I can argue that you're not truly sharing.
Oh, I agree on that it's probably not truly sharing. So what? Are you
going to inspect the licenses as well? Check whether the CPAN upload
is a binary or does come with source?
++ Abigail> Do we really need a language restriction, and if so, why English?
++ Abigail> It's not the person doing the announcement fault that others can't
++ Abigail> read German or Spanish, is it? Restriction to English doesn't go wel
++ Abigail> with "worldwide".
++
++ The "worldwide" language of technology is English. It happens to be the
++ only human language I speak, so I lucked out there. There are regional
++ non-English Perl groups that can properly hold announcements in other
++ languages. I'd like to restrict CLPA to articles I can read.
So, a Perl Mongers announcement for the middle of the Yukon would be fine
because it's in English, but the announcement for Lingua::FR::Inflect,
written in French, is too regional for clpa? That's plain silly. I wouldn't
call French or Spanish "regional" languages.
Abigail
--
perl -we 'print split /(?=(.*))/s => "Just another Perl Hacker\n";'
------------------------------
Date: 12 Jul 98 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Special: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 12 Mar 98)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
Special notice: in a few days, the new group comp.lang.perl.moderated
should be formed. I would rather not support two different groups, and I
know of no other plans to create a digested moderated group. This leaves
me with two options: 1) keep on with this group 2) change to the
moderated one.
If you have opinions on this, send them to
perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
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The "mini-FAQ", which is an updated version of the Meta-FAQ, is
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 3327
**************************************
