[9438] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3033 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Jun 30 21:07:22 1998
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 98 18:00:32 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 30 Jun 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 3033
Today's topics:
Re: A funny problem with "use integer" <schwartz@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Re: A funny problem with "use integer" (Larry Rosler)
Re: Comparing date stamps (Michael J Gebis)
error using time on NT <mequi@newtonline.com>
File Upload - Need Help... <webmaster@triologic.com>
Re: File Upload - Need Help... <rra@stanford.edu>
Re: flock woes. (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: goto disallowed outside blocks?! <rra@stanford.edu>
How do you do system administration with perl? charlesh@direct.ca
How to in perl ac123@simpatico.ca
Re: How to in perl <rra@stanford.edu>
Re: How to in perl <david.x.corcoran@boeing.com>
Re: How to in perl (Larry Rosler)
Re: How to in perl (Larry Rosler)
Re: Java and Perl together? <david.x.corcoran@boeing.com>
Passing arguments to perl CGI (mikep)
Re: Passing arguments to perl CGI (Bob Trieger)
Problem with "my" function (David Walford)
Re: Problem with "my" function (brian d foy)
Re: Problem with "my" function (David Walford)
Re: problems with script (Abigail)
Scoping of test in if and while (Michael Rubenstein)
Re: What a Crappy World <ljz@asfast.com>
Re: What is wrong with this script? (Abigail)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 1998 00:22:19 GMT
From: Martin Schwartz <schwartz@cs.tu-berlin.de>
Subject: Re: A funny problem with "use integer"
Message-Id: <6nbvfr$mnt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Josh Kortbein <kortbein@iastate.edu> wrote:
>> Vivek> [kci]% cat |perl
>> As I've said before, it's a good thing I don't give out Useless Use
>> of Cat Awards anywhere other than comp.unix.{shell,questions}.
> Excuse this one, but what's so useless about the above usage?
Try both:
kir> cat | perl
print "Cats!\n";
^D
kir> perl
print "Dogs!\n";
^D
:-), Martin
--
// Le degre zero de l'ecriture? Zero probleme!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:40:26 -0700
From: lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
Subject: Re: A funny problem with "use integer"
Message-Id: <MPG.10032554e56b4d249896dd@nntp.hpl.hp.com>
In article <6nbvfr$mnt$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> on 1 Jul 1998 00:22:19
GMT, Martin Schwartz <schwartz@cs.tu-berlin.de> says...
> Josh Kortbein <kortbein@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
> >> Vivek> [kci]% cat |perl
>
> >> As I've said before, it's a good thing I don't give out Useless Use
> >> of Cat Awards anywhere other than comp.unix.{shell,questions}.
>
> > Excuse this one, but what's so useless about the above usage?
>
> Try both:
>
> kir> cat | perl
> print "Cats!\n";
> ^D
>
> kir> perl
> print "Dogs!\n";
> ^D
file cats contains: print "Cats!\n";
file dogs contains: print "Dogs!\n";
Try both:
kir> cat cats dogs | perl
kir> perl cats dogs
Not so useless, eh?
--
Larry Rosler
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Larry_Rosler/
lr@hpl.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 1998 00:10:21 GMT
From: gebis@albrecht.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael J Gebis)
Subject: Re: Comparing date stamps
Message-Id: <6nbupd$bii@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
raanders@my-dejanews.com writes:
}In a program I am writing, I am trying to compare the date stamps of two
}files to see which file is newer. Can anyone tell me how to do this? I'm
}pretty new to Perl so please talk slow...! Thanks in advance!
$file_age = (-M "filename");
Depending on what you meant by "date stamp" you might want to use "-A"
or "-C". Read the perlfunc man page, look for "file test".
You could also use stat, but that is less fun. (It's not bad, and
I encourage you to read the perlfunc on stat too, but it's less
perl-like and more c-like.)
Good luck. Remember to repay your karmic debt by helping someone else
on this group as you gain experience!
--
Mike Gebis gebis@ecn.purdue.edu mgebis@eternal.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:35:40 -0400
From: "Michael Equi" <mequi@newtonline.com>
Subject: error using time on NT
Message-Id: <6nc0j1$o1d$1@strato.ultra.net>
I am trying to do something very simple, but am getting an error.
I want to get the current time. I have tried:
$string =time;
I also tried:
use Time::localtime;
printf "Year is %d\n", localtime->year() + 1900;
as a test but I always get the response:
"The system cannot accept the time entered.
Enter the new time:"
Any ideas?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:19:42 GMT
From: Nick Forte <webmaster@triologic.com>
Subject: File Upload - Need Help...
Message-Id: <35997ED5.1062E9F2@triologic.com>
I have this script running on an ISP's box and it basically does this:
* Take an image file(jpg only) from the user's PC and write to the
server in a certain directory.
My problem is that it writes 0 bytes, because the owner defaults to
'nobody', which doesn't have permission to write to the server. How do I
get around this? Is there a special module just for this?
Thanks.
Nick Forte
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:25:26 -0700
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: File Upload - Need Help...
Message-Id: <m3ra06v2mh.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
Nick Forte <webmaster@triologic.com> writes:
> I have this script running on an ISP's box and it basically does this:
> * Take an image file(jpg only) from the user's PC and write to the
> server in a certain directory.
Hope you're using CGI.pm to do the file upload, as pretty much any other
tool is unlikely to get it right.
> My problem is that it writes 0 bytes, because the owner defaults to
> 'nobody', which doesn't have permission to write to the server. How do I
> get around this?
Um, change the permissions?
> Is there a special module just for this?
No?
Honestly, the problem that you're having is that the web server can't
write to directories. This is intentional. If the web server could write
to directories, the web server would be a big potential security hole. If
you grant the web server permissions to write to directories, including by
file upload, you're creating a security hole, and the server is going to
make it hard for you to do that.
You have a few options:
* Create a directory that's world-writeable or writeable by the web
server user (who, if you do this, should be a user *other* than nobody
so that you don't break the Unix semantics for nobody). This is
functionally equivalent to setting up an anonymous upload directory
via ftp and should be handled with the same caution, including
carefully watching what shows up there. In particular, you should not
write to a "live" directory; you should pick things up from the
directory and move them (possibly from cron).
* Use one of the many toolsets available for CGI scripts to let them run
as users and run the upload script as a user that has permissions to
write to the directory you want to write to. THIS SHOULD BE DONE WITH
EXTREME CAUTION -- see the warnings on the toolsets that let you do
this.
BTW, your question really doesn't have anything to do with Perl; in the
future, please send questions like this to a CGI programming group
instead.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
$^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 23:06:23 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: flock woes.
Message-Id: <6nbr1f$9et$1@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <6n9gmq$j2r$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>,
Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> writes:
> In comp.lang.perl.misc,
> mjd@op.net (Mark-Jason Dominus) writes:
>: I seem to remember that on some systems you can't exclusive-lock a
>:file unless you opened it for writing. That's stupid, but there it
>:is.
>
> In fact, badly derived SysV ones that make perl use lockf
> on the underside are like this. AIX is the most likely
> culprit, but one might also look carefully at Irix and hpux.
And Solaris, to just add to the list. This actually did come up about
two months ago on this group, and the suggestion was brought up then
to read the entry for flock in perlfunc. It mentions this
specifically. Yay for the documentation.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | A Freudian slip is when you say one
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | thing but mean your mother.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:12:31 -0700
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: goto disallowed outside blocks?!
Message-Id: <m33ecmwhsg.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
Ed Korthof <ed@crankshaft.linex.com> writes:
> I'm writing about a change which happened sometime between Perl 5.003_08
> and Perl 5.004_04, and which is (so far as I've been able to tell)
> undocumented. When I try to goto a label from w/in a signal handler, it
> tells me it can't goto outside a block! Here's simple code which
> demonstrates the error:
> -----
> [ed@crankshaft ed]$ ./test.pl
> Can't "goto" outside a block at ./test.pl line 3.
> [ed@crankshaft ed]$ more test.pl
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> $SIG{'ALRM'} = sub { goto BAR; };
> alarm 5; sleep 10;
> BAR:
> print STDERR "I'm back!\n";
Hmm... from perldiag:
Can't "goto" outside a block
(F) A "goto" statement was executed to jump out of what
might look like a block, except that it isn't a proper
block. This usually occurs if you tried to jump out of
a sort() block or subroutine, which is a no-no. See the
goto entry in the perlfunc manpage.
Normally that error message is only supposed to apply if you try to do a
goto out of a sub that sort was calling. But if you think about what
doing a goto out of a signal handler is doing, that's a pretty evil thing
to try to do; your code is running at some arbitrary time at which Perl's
own internal state may not be consistent, and you're trying to longjump()
into some completely different set of code.
I think the answer is "you really don't want to do that; you want to find
a different way of accomplishing the same thing."
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
$^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:40:30 GMT
From: charlesh@direct.ca
Subject: How do you do system administration with perl?
Message-Id: <359982cb.610639@news.direct.ca>
Advanced perl users,
I'd like to read some real examples as mentioned in subject.
Anyone can point some places or books for me?
Thanks
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:14:34 GMT
From: ac123@simpatico.ca
Subject: How to in perl
Message-Id: <359a6ed1.1213157@news1.on.sympatico.ca>
I am new to perl and would like to do the following sed command but
all in perl:
sed 1,6d filename
This sed command removes the top six lines from the file.
How do I do this all in perl.
The reason why I want to do this in perl is because I am on a win32
platform running Perl and don't have access to sed. Many people have
said that if I had perl I didn't need sed for win32.
Ian
ac123@sympatico.ca
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 17:14:57 -0700
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: How to in perl
Message-Id: <m3zpeuv33y.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
comp.lang.perl doesn't exist; if it shows up at your site, you may want to
talk to your news administrator, as that means that they have a very old
list of groups and you're probably missing lots of new ones. alt.perl
doesn't have much propagation; I wouldn't recommend using it.
In comp.lang.perl.misc, ac123 <ac123@simpatico.ca> writes:
> I am new to perl and would like to do the following sed command but
> all in perl:
> sed 1,6d filename
> This sed command removes the top six lines from the file. How do I do
> this all in perl.
perl -ne 'print unless 1..6' filename
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
$^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:27:09 GMT
From: David Corcoran <david.x.corcoran@boeing.com>
To: ac123@simpatico.ca
Subject: Re: How to in perl
Message-Id: <3599825D.AA9@boeing.com>
ac123@simpatico.ca wrote:
>
> I am new to perl and would like to do the following sed command but
> all in perl:
>
> sed 1,6d filename
>
for sed see http://www.cygnus.com/misc/gnu-win32
I got the majority of the utilities from them they seem to work.
in perl:
perl -ne "print if $. > 6;" filename
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:26:01 -0700
From: lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
Subject: Re: How to in perl
Message-Id: <MPG.100321f3cc1c5d2d9896dc@nntp.hpl.hp.com>
In article <359a6ed1.1213157@news1.on.sympatico.ca> on Tue, 30 Jun 1998
23:14:34 GMT, ac123@simpatico.ca <ac123@simpatico.ca> says...
> I am new to perl and would like to do the following sed command but
> all in perl:
>
> sed 1,6d filename
>
> This sed command removes the top six lines from the file.
> How do I do this all in perl.
C:\>perl -wne "print if $. > 6" filename
--
Larry Rosler
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Larry_Rosler/
lr@hpl.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:52:49 -0700
From: lr@hpl.hp.com (Larry Rosler)
Subject: Re: How to in perl
Message-Id: <MPG.1003283c5163ee7c9896de@nntp.hpl.hp.com>
[This followup was posted to comp.lang.perl.misc and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]
In article <m3zpeuv33y.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU> on 30 Jun 1998 17:14:57
-0700, Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu> says...
...
> perl -ne 'print unless 1..6' filename
My answer was:
perl -wne "print if $. > 6" filename
Amusing. Both are correct (except that you left out the -w :-). But
yours is platform-independent and mine is not (assuming the default
command interpreter on Win32).
--
Larry Rosler
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Larry_Rosler/
lr@hpl.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:32:53 GMT
From: David Corcoran <david.x.corcoran@boeing.com>
To: Scott Baxter <baxter@ki.com>
Subject: Re: Java and Perl together?
Message-Id: <359983B5.49A3@boeing.com>
Scott Baxter wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> My boss has asked me to write a perl script to scan files while another
> guy writes a Java front end for it.
>
> Any suggestions for how best to have these programs talk to one
> another? Our solution must run on NT as well as UNIX.
> --
> Scott Baxter: Documentation, Webmaster (800) 945-4454 X253
> Ki NETWORKS, Inc. mailto:scott.baxter@ki.com
CATSTA (Came Across This Some Time Ago)
I don't have a clue whether it will meet your needs, but thought it
interesting.
http://www.mdbusiness.com/Scripts/JavaCGI
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 22:47:14 GMT
From: mikep@rt66.com (mikep)
Subject: Passing arguments to perl CGI
Message-Id: <6nbpti$mvj$1@news.rt66.com>
I'm using a perl script as a CGI script. I'd like to pass arguments to
it. What is the appropriate syntax to interact with the HTTP server
(e.g. is there one general way in which parameters are passed to a CGI
script?)? Once I pass the arguments, how do they appear to the script
itself (e.g. in the $ARGV built-in variable?)?
MTIA
===========================
Mike Powell
mikep@rt66.com
http://www.rt66.com/~mikep/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:44:59 GMT
From: sowmaster@juicepigs.com (Bob Trieger)
Subject: Re: Passing arguments to perl CGI
Message-Id: <6nbtdn$ct$1@strato.ultra.net>
[ posted and mailed ]
mikep@rt66.com (mikep) wrote:
-> I'm using a perl script as a CGI script. I'd like to pass arguments to
-> it. What is the appropriate syntax to interact with the HTTP server
-> (e.g. is there one general way in which parameters are passed to a CGI
-> script?)? Once I pass the arguments, how do they appear to the script
-> itself (e.g. in the $ARGV built-in variable?)?
use CGI;
That's almost all there is to it.
Bob Trieger
sowmaster@juicepigs.com
" Cost a spammer some cash: Call 1-800-286-0591
and let the jerk that answers know that his
toll free number was sent as spam. "
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 23:13:13 GMT
From: davewal@echo.corp.sgi.com (David Walford)
Subject: Problem with "my" function
Message-Id: <6nbre9$90j$1@murrow.corp.sgi.com>
I moved my script over to a new apache server and I am getting syntac errors on
all my "my" function calls. For instance:
sub match {
my $line = shift;
my $tag;
foreach $tag (@elements) {
return "END_$tag" if /\b$tag:\s*/;
}
return 0;
}
This is using Perl5. What has changed?
Thanks
David
--
\ David M. Walford | email: davewal@corp.sgi.com /
/ Applied Engineering, Mktg. | m/s: 14L-915 \
\ Silicon Graphics, Inc. | voice: 650-933-6451 /
/ Desktop Systems Division | fax: 650-932-0274 \
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:42:50 -0400
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: Problem with "my" function
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R3006981942500001@news.panix.com>
Keywords: from just another new york perl hacker
In article <6nbre9$90j$1@murrow.corp.sgi.com>, davewal@echo.corp.sgi.com (David Walford) posted:
>I moved my script over to a new apache server and I am getting syntac errors on
>all my "my" function calls. For instance:
>
>sub match {
> my $line = shift;
> my $tag;
the error text would help us diagnose the problem, along with the
output of `perl -v`.
good luck :)
--
brian d foy <comdog@computerdog.com>
CGI Meta FAQ <URL:http://computerdog.com/CGI_MetaFAQ.html>
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN) <URL:http://www.perl.com>
Perl Mongers T-shirts! <URL:http://www.pm.org/tshirts.html>
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 23:53:00 GMT
From: davewal@echo.corp.sgi.com (David Walford)
To: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: Problem with "my" function
Message-Id: <6nbtos$9k9$1@murrow.corp.sgi.com>
Keywords: from just another new york perl hacker
Thanks Brian
The first script was calling perl4 and the server wasn't seeing that the library
file that I was requesting was perl5. The unix server that I was on, didn't
have this problem. Time to update all my old scripts.
Thanks
David
--
\ David M. Walford | email: davewal@corp.sgi.com /
/ Applied Engineering, Mktg. | m/s: 14L-915 \
\ Silicon Graphics, Inc. | voice: 650-933-6451 /
/ Desktop Systems Division | fax: 650-932-0274 \
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 1998 00:13:47 GMT
From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail)
Subject: Re: problems with script
Message-Id: <6nbuvr$9mi$1@client3.news.psi.net>
Matt Knecht (hex@voicenet.com) wrote on MDCCLXIV September MCMXCIII in
<URL: news:zBbm1.5$Ve.544712@news2.voicenet.com>:
++ Abigail <abigail@fnx.com> wrote:
++ >++ Long before that, hopefully! I can't remember where I read it, but a
++ >++ very good book about C says something to the effect of: "You need only
++ >++ remember one rule of precedence. Multiplication and division come
++ >++ before addition and subtraction. Any else, use parentheses." Of
++ >++ course, in C you don't have to worry about the precedence of '='.
++ >
++ >So, you state a rule, directly followed by an exeption.
++
++ It was a book on C, speaking of things C. Of course there will be
++ exceptions when this is applied to Perl!
++
++ >What about $foo = $bar [3] + 3; ? Another exception?
++
++ I had to run a quick test to make sure this did what I think it would
++ do. This sort of construct is right up there with saying [x]4 in C when
++ you should be writing x[4]. Good for obfuscation, and little else.
Good for obfuscating?????? I use that construct all the time, in any
language that has arrays, and I never use parens for that. Are you
really suggesting that it should be written as:
$foo = ($bar [3]) + 3; ????
++
++ > $foo = $$bar + 3; ? Yet another exception?
++ > /bar/ || /foo/; ? Parens here??
++
++ Again, the rule was orginally applied to C. Of course it's not going to
++ fit perfectly in Perl. But, yes, those are good exceptions.
Oh, ok. Let me give some C examples then:
foo = bar [3] + 3; /* Parens? */
foo = *bar + 3; /* Parens? */
foo (3) || bar (3); /* Parens? */
All of these use operations beyond the operators given in the simple rule.
++
++ >++ I think this style is a Good Thing(tm):
++ >++
++ >++ if (!((($a < $b) && ($c > $d)) || $f))
++ >
++ >Not to me, as it starts all kinds of bells and whistle that
++ >something special is going on. But there isn't.
++
++ Hmmm. Parentheses mean something special is going on? Please
++ explain/demonstrate. I don't understand.
if (!($a < ($b && $c > ($d || $f))))
Abigail
--
perl5.004 -wMMath::BigInt -e'$^V=new Math::BigInt+qq;$^F$^W783$[$%9889$^F47$|88768$^W596577669$%$^W5$^F3364$[$^W$^F$|838747$[8889739$%$|$^F673$%$^W98$^F76777$=56;;$^U=substr($]=>$|=>5)*(q.25..($^W=@^V))=>do{print+chr$^V%$^U;$^V/=$^U}while$^V!=$^W'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 00:45:33 GMT
From: miker3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Rubenstein)
Subject: Scoping of test in if and while
Message-Id: <359b8516.77856441@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
A friend ran into a difference of scoping of the test expression if
and while statements. Consider the script
if ("abcd" =~ /ab/)
{
print "first:$&\n";
}
print "second:$&\n";
while ("abcd" =~ /cd/)
{
print "third:$&\n";
last;
}
print "fourth:$&\n";
This prints
first:ab
second:ab
third:cd
fourth:ab
Apparently the test expression of an if is considered to be outside
the scope of the controlled block and the test expression of a while
is considered to be inside.
I cannot find any documentation on this feature (bug?).
--
Michael M Rubenstein
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 1998 20:57:05 -0400
From: Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <ltlnqez8v2.fsf@asfast.com>
cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry) writes:
> Lloyd Zusman (ljz@asfast.com) wrote:
> [Many very good points snipped]
> : It's clear that you truly believe that those who come here in this
> : manner with frequently asked questions are inconsiderate and
> : uncivilized w/r/t usenet. But keep in mind that it's equally
> : inconsiderate and uncivilized (w/r/t the larger, human society in
> : which we all live) to engage in gratuitous insulting behavior.
> :
> : In other words, those few who do so here are just as uncivilized as
> : those they are attempting to criticize.
>
> I do understand this, and it rather surprises me to find myself in the
> position of defending (though not practicing) 'impolite' responses to
> impolite behavior. This thread has given me a great deal to think about.
> I suppose my "throw anything at the problem" attitude is born of urgency;
> we appear to be witnessing the gradual death of Usenet, in this and many
> other groups.
Well, I almost hesitate to state what I'm about to state, because it
will sound so trite, but I have rarely chosen silence when I have an
opportunity to loquaciously expound and pontificate on a subject that
means something to me <grin>. And my trite-but-I-believe-true
statement is this: sometimes a death can also be a re-birth.
The world is undergoing a revolution in communication, and the
Internet (including usenet) is a big part of that. For more than a
century, it's been possible to send almost instantaneous messages to
remote locations, but only in recent years has it finally become
possible to enjoy full-blown discussions, debates, knowledge
exchanges, commerce, romance, revolution, gossip, news, etc. etc. in
real time (or at least near real time) with people from cultures all
over the world ... and for a tiny fraction of the cost of telephone
communication to these same locations. Millions of people are doing
this today, and the number keeps growing.
Repressive regimes who have managed to stay in power only through the
careful filtering and censorship of news and information are finding
it harder and harder to do business this way any more. Millions (and
possibly billions) of people who live in these regimes are benefitting
from these increasingly open and free avenues of communication in
their cultures.
As part of this revolution, changes have been taking place in usenet.
But for me, these are, in the balance, good and wonderful changes.
> [ ... ] Usenet is something I'd hate to lose. Given that
> politeness does not seem to stem the tide of Usenet damage, I find myself
> driven to considering other options.
Usenet used to be a nearly unknown niche where a few dedicated,
talented, and knowledgeable people could hang out and communicate with
each other, creating wonderful new inventions and processes, sharing
these creations, and building up an amazing infrastructure for
communication and for the transfer of knowledge.
But now, the world has discovered the net, and usenet has all but lost
its "unknown niche" status. Losing ones old, familiar hang-out joint
to the mass of humanity can truly be sad, but those who wish to have
their little corners where they can share intimate times with their
compatriots in undisturbed comfort can easily create such places.
Private mailing lists and moderated newsgroups are merely two of many
possibilities for this. So if you think about it, not much has really
been lost.
And at the same time, the benefits to humanity of having *everyone* in
the world able to communicate as freely and openly and fully as we
long-term usenet denizens have done for almost two decades far
outweigh (in my humble opinion) the slight inconvenience of having to
create a private mailing list or a moderated newsgroup.
Do we really have the arrogance to believe that we're somehow better
and more deserving of these benefits than all these "newbies" who
are showing up?
> [ ... ] Perhaps I'm underestimating the
> power of politeness; perhaps Usenet as we previously knew it is already
> dead.
In my opinion, nastiness, rudeness, and insultingness will not be any
more effective than politeness. Both are nearly useless at keeping
"newbies" away. It's already a lost cause. Elitism always loses out
in the end.
And I don't think that I'm the only person here who welcomes all these
new people with open arms ... I'm sure there are many others here who
agree with me that the net is a *great* place and who want to share it
with everyone! I personally really dislike the "newbie" label, since
it separates our world into "us" versus "them", and nothing but strife
can ever come of something like that.
For me, September MCMXCIII (or whatever date you choose) is not some
sort of "day of infamy", but rather, a symbol of something that is
wonderful for all people all over the world.
Those of you who don't want to have to deal with this still-growing
tide of humanity coming into the net could try to erect barriers,
retreat into elitism, and in various ways lash out at all these
people. But wouldn't it be better to just band together and use all
the wonderful creative energy at our disposal and build a totally new
set of communications channels, on top of the Internet or parallel to
it, where you once again can have your privacy if you wish, and where
things like spam become impossible? I think that this kind of
creativity is much more worthwhile and productive than simply digging
your heels in and sniping at the newcomers, thereby wasting your
energy and talent in negative and non-constructive pursuits.
> [ ... ] In either case, I'm wrong to argue as I have. Still,
> though, I wonder if perhaps there is a place for well-focused rage.
I believe that part of letting go involves going through and
expressing all the rage, sadness, pain, etc. that's there. For the
sake of your health and happiness, I would advise you do that sooner
rather than later. And I'm sure you'll find quite a few kindred
souls here in c.l.p.m who will be happy to share the rage and the
rest of the process with you.
And after such a letting-go process, you may very well be amazed at
the number of new and wonderful options and opportunities that
suddenly seem to present themselves.
> I'm going to drop out of this debate and meditate for a while.
> Thanks to all for making me think, a challenge even at the best of
> times. :)
I, for one, appreciate your thoughtful debate, and I thank you for
making me think, as well. I'm sure that quite a few people here are
equally thankful to you. I trust that you'll stick around and
continue to contribute to other threads here.
--
Lloyd Zusman ljz@asfast.com
perl -e '$n=170;for($d=2;($d*$d)<=$n;$d+=(1+($d%2))){for($t=0;($n%$d)==0;
$t++){$n=int($n/$d);}while($t-->0){push(@r,$d);}}if($n>1){push(@r,$n);}
$x=0;map{$x+=(($_>0)?(1<<log($_-0.5)/log(2.0)+1):1)}@r;print"$x\n"'
------------------------------
Date: 1 Jul 1998 00:27:02 GMT
From: abigail@fnx.com (Abigail)
Subject: Re: What is wrong with this script?
Message-Id: <6nbvom$9mi$2@client3.news.psi.net>
sprigen687@pop.dnvr.uswest.net (sprigen687@pop.dnvr.uswest.net) wrote on
MDCCLXIV September MCMXCIII in <URL: news:35994A3E.D2FB7AD3@pop.dnvr.uswest.net>:
++ I'm trying to run a script through Perl and send a HTML document back,
++ only Netscape thinks the document contians no data.
If the problem is just with Netscape, contact Netscape. Perl does not
now if the data is send to Netscape or not.
Abigail
--
perl -wle '$, = " "; sub AUTOLOAD {($AUTOLOAD =~ /::(.*)/) [0];}
print+Just (), another (), Perl (), Hacker ();'
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 3033
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