[9053] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2673 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu May 21 21:09:34 1998
Date: Thu, 21 May 98 18:02:54 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 21 May 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2673
Today's topics:
Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil <hp@pobox.com>
Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil <rra@stanford.edu>
Re: LABOR CRISIS: Perl SW Guru NEEDED MA Intranet Start scott@softbase.com
Re: LABOR CRISIS: Perl SW Guru NEEDED MA Intranet Start <zenin@bawdycaste.org>
looking for simple browser - cgi compatible -not lynx - <sirron@mail.mcoe.k12.ca.us>
Re: More double standards out of the FSF <rra@stanford.edu>
Quiet summary <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
static variables in perl? <dungan@flash.net>
Re: Suggestion Re: GNU attacks on the open software com <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Re: Tom Christiansen attacks the free software communit <harman@omsi14.omsi.com>
Re: Tom Christiansen attacks the free software communit <harman@omsi14.omsi.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 23:03:01 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil
Message-Id: <6k2br5$m51$2@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In gnu.misc.discuss,
robert havoc pennington <hp@pobox.com> writes:
:Note that your license doesn't allow the situation where the GPL
:would be "viral" (modification, use in derived works), so there's
:no way it could be viral. So no need for an "exemption," whatever that
:means.
I want people to be able to steal my coding solutions for their
proprietary code without having to release their own additions
even if they ship it as a binary.
--tom
--
Let's say the docs present a simplified view of reality... :-)
--Larry Wall in <6940@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:26:40 GMT
From: robert havoc pennington <hp@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil
Message-Id: <wsnemxn8atr.fsf@harper.uchicago.edu>
Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> writes:
>
> I want people to be able to steal my coding solutions for their
> proprietary code without having to release their own additions
> even if they ship it as a binary.
>
The existence of the GPL in no way impacts your ability to do
this. You could do this and still have the FSF call your docs
free. They are calling the docs non-free because people can't modify
the docs, not because the docs are not GPL. Even if the docs were GPL,
you could have an exception that allowed use of examples - according
to other posters, you don't even need the exception.
Don't get me wrong. I 100% support the license on your docs. I like
all the perl documentation, I like O'Reilly's contributions to free
software, and I bought your book. I just don't see why you're making a
big deal out of this, and flaming on about the GPL, when the GPL
doesn't and won't ever apply to your docs. You do what you want, and
let the FSF do what they want. Everybody play nice, right?
Havoc Pennington ==== http://pobox.com/~hp
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 16:55:57 -0700
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: GPL documentation == unspeakable evil
Message-Id: <m3zpgbqiup.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
In comp.lang.perl.misc, robert havoc pennington <hp@pobox.com> writes:
> Don't get me wrong. I 100% support the license on your docs. I like all
> the perl documentation, I like O'Reilly's contributions to free
> software, and I bought your book. I just don't see why you're making a
> big deal out of this, and flaming on about the GPL, when the GPL doesn't
> and won't ever apply to your docs.
This is unclear. Perl itself is distributed under the user's choice of
the GPL or the Artistic License. Tom's docs are distributed with Perl.
Now I know that Tom's changed the licensing structure of his docs, but I'm
not sure when that happened or how comprehensive it was.
It's possible that some of the documentation that comes with Perl hasn't
been specifically put under other licenses and therefore may fall under
the global possible choice of GPL for the Perl distribution itself.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
$^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 21:11:30 GMT
From: scott@softbase.com
Subject: Re: LABOR CRISIS: Perl SW Guru NEEDED MA Intranet Start-up 80K+>+Equity
Message-Id: <6k25a2$hkj$1@mainsrv.main.nc.us>
RETRACTION AND CORRECTION (please don't e-mail me about my
brain meltdown):
I wrote:
> 5 years experience or MORE? With Perl?
This should read: "5 years experience or MORE? With Perl? If
you haven't gotten it by the first couple of years, what will
the last three accomplish? Oh, well, and anyway, it doesn't
seem like CGI hasn't existed for 5 years yet."
This is a goof:
> OO Perl has only been around about a year.
Time really flies. I honestly hadn't realized Perl 5 has been out that
long. I retract this statement.
I stand by my main point, though, that the labor crisis is largely a
hoax of unfillable positions that require too many micro-specific
skills.
Scott
--
Look at Softbase Systems' client/server tools, www.softbase.com
Check out the Essential 97 package for Windows 95 www.skwc.com/essent
All my other cool web pages are available from that site too!
My demo tape, artwork, poetry, The Windows 95 Book FAQ, and more.
------------------------------
Date: 22 May 98 00:47:47 GMT
From: Zenin <zenin@bawdycaste.org>
Subject: Re: LABOR CRISIS: Perl SW Guru NEEDED MA Intranet Start-up 80K+>+Equity
Message-Id: <895798765.77402@thrush.omix.com>
scott@softbase.com wrote:
: This should read: "5 years experience or MORE? With Perl? If
: you haven't gotten it by the first couple of years, what will
: the last three accomplish? Oh, well, and anyway, it doesn't
: seem like CGI hasn't existed for 5 years yet."
Software engineering is more then memorizing the perlfunc
man page.
: I stand by my main point, though, that the labor crisis is largely a
: hoax of unfillable positions that require too many micro-specific
: skills.
Doubtful, IMHO. This guy emailed me directly to ask if I would
be interested or if I knew anyone that would be interested (no, it
wasn't spam). The skill list was pretty small infact and closely
related. It actually describes most of the people I work with
pretty well. Looks pretty legit to me.
--
-Zenin
zenin@archive.rhps.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:32:12 -0700
From: Joseph Norris <sirron@mail.mcoe.k12.ca.us>
Subject: looking for simple browser - cgi compatible -not lynx -not netscape
Message-Id: <3564B97C.2286F50F@mail.mcoe.k12.ca.us>
Hello group,
I am trying to find a simple browser for my Linux box that will allow me
to test my CGI scripts. I downloaded netscape for Linux but it has a few
problems (like taking a century to load). I do not need internet
connectivity. The purpose of this is just to have a test area for my CGI
scripts. I already have an HTTP server running, I just need the browser.
Thanks. joseph
--
Joseph Norris (Perl/Linux/Linux)
@n=(106,117,115,116,32,97,110,111,116,104,101,114,32,112,101,114,108,32,
104,97,99,107,101,114,32,106,111,115,101,112,104,32,78,111,114,114,105,115,10);
print @c=map chr,@n;
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 16:46:20 -0700
From: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: More double standards out of the FSF
Message-Id: <m33ee3rxv7.fsf@windlord.Stanford.EDU>
In comp.lang.perl.misc, robert havoc pennington <hp@pobox.com> writes:
> Sure. OK, let's assume that perltoot is a piece of artistic prose. RMS
> sees a need for utilitarian, modifiable perl documentation, which he
> would see as distinct from opinion writing. Let him write this
> documentation and put his desire for it on his task list. How does that
> hurt you?
It doesn't, provided that everyone ignores him. If people don't, it
splits the documentation effort between two mutually incompatible doc
sets, and documentation is *hard* to get written for free software
projects, as anyone who's participated in a non-trivial one is aware.
--
#!/usr/bin/perl -- Russ Allbery, Just Another Perl Hacker
$^=q;@!>~|{>krw>yn{u<$$<[~||<Juukn{=,<S~|}<Jwx}qn{<Yn{u<Qjltn{ > 0gFzD gD,
00Fz, 0,,( 0hF 0g)F/=, 0> "L$/GEIFewe{,$/ 0C$~> "@=,m,|,(e 0.), 01,pnn,y{
rw} >;,$0=q,$,,($_=$^)=~y,$/ C-~><@=\n\r,-~$:-u/ #y,d,s,(\$.),$1,gee,print
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 22:55:19 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Quiet summary
Message-Id: <6k2bcn$m51$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
mrw@uiuc.edu (Matthew R. Williams) writes:
:Would you really want to modify that document and claim any of
:RMS's bizarre, insane ranting as your own?
Um, no.
Here's the restrained summary:
``There are two problems with the Perl documentation that we can
and should clarify; this may involve changing included copyrights.
The first matter is that using code derived from the examples
(some of which are very long) in your programs in no way infects
your code with the GPL. The second matter is that in whatever
form that Perl is distributed, its documentation may/must also
be distributed. The public statement by the FSF that Perl's
documentation is not "free" risks misleading people -- because
the Perl community recognizes that its documentation is free --
and should be therefore amended.''
That's about as restrained as I expect to get.
--tom
--
#ifdef USE_STD_STDIO /* Here is some breathtakingly efficient cheating */
--Larry Wall, from sv.c in the v5.0 perl distribution
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 06:56:29 -0600
From: "Andrew M. Dungan" <dungan@flash.net>
Subject: static variables in perl?
Message-Id: <3564247B.69B1EF09@flash.net>
does perl support static variables (like C++ does)?
if so, what is the syntax to define a static variable?
Thanks,
Andy
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 23:49:24 GMT
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Suggestion Re: GNU attacks on the open software community
Message-Id: <895794564.79235@cabal>
In <6k1vr1$rc0@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> gebis@albrecht.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael J Gebis) writes:
>Jason Larke <jlarke@anthem.aa.ans.net> writes:
[...]
>}But instead of trying to get him to rewrite his license, I think
>}it would be nice if the FSF changed their statement to read
>}something like:
>Why should the FSF type one keystroke to pander to someone who is too
>lazy to read their definition of "free"?
Because by doing so you reduce the amount of confusion in the world, help
prevent the distrabution of documationless perl and make Mr Christiansen
happy.
--
I'm a perl programer; if you need perl programing, hire me.
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia; see the url. Support NoCeM
http://www.cit.nepean.uws.edu.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html http://www.cm.org/
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 16:20:28 -0700
From: Harmanjit Singh <harman@omsi14.omsi.com>
Subject: Re: Tom Christiansen attacks the free software community (was: Re: GNU attacks on the open software community)
Message-Id: <xfgaf8bw6rn.fsf@omsi14.omsi.com>
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> writes:
Chris> When they go outside of their tiny little circle, it is
They did not go outside. It was published on the GNU Task
list, and I can't believe someone is looking at the *task list* of GNU
and be not familiar with the GNU concepts.
Chris> intentional or careless deception, which is the pretty much
Chris> the same as lying.
It is neither deception nor lying. They are using a
legitimate meaning of free which they have explained at the beginning
of most of their posts. Even the Gnu Bulletin.
Chris> Just as if I said McDonald's hamburgers were free for the
Chris> asking. Knowing full well my definition of free (provided
Chris> with ketchup) is not accepted outside of myself, to say
Chris> that is a lie, unless I fully qualify it.
Your analogy is far-fetched. In language, context is the
key. Your definition of free is arbitrary. The FSF definition is
not. They have chosen the right word after a lot of deliberation.
And no, Sir. That is not a lie if I intend my saying to be
heard by people familiar to my language. That is pretty much the
situation with the Gnu writings.
And on their web page, which they think is read by almost
anybody, they clearly explain the terms.
Actually, the Gnu Bulletin too contains the goals of the
project, as regards freedom, near its beginning.
Chris> It is not hard. In usenet discussions, reference the link
Chris> as you did. On web pages, make a hyperlink from the word
Chris> "free" to that page. There, now you have gone from being
Chris> irresponsible to responsible (as far as the usage of the
Chris> word is concerned). And it wasn't that hard.
It would make a long document hard to read.
Chris> But since FSF are the ones changing the definitions, it is
Chris> incumbent on them to make it clear what they mean to the
Chris> rest of the world.
They do. Abundantly, and precisely. I think they already go
to great lengths to make it clear.
If in some case, someone is misled nevertheless, it doesn't
call for calling the author irresponsible and a liar.
--
With Warm Regards, | Open Management Software Inc.
Harmanjit Singh. | 5600 Mowry School Rd., #180, Newark CA 94560, USA.
| Ph: 1-510-360-1107, Fax: 1-510-360-1112
| Email: harman@omsi.com
------------------------------
Date: 21 May 1998 16:41:39 -0700
From: Harmanjit Singh <harman@omsi14.omsi.com>
Subject: Re: Tom Christiansen attacks the free software community (was: Re: GNU attacks on the open software community)
Message-Id: <xfg90nvw5sc.fsf@omsi14.omsi.com>
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> writes:
Chris> No, it is spreading misinformation recklessly, which is
Chris> just as bad. Recklessness is just as bad as malicious
Chris> intent.
Richard Stallman is the one of the most considerate, calm and
polite speakers/writers I have come across. He is definitely not
reckless in his terminology or writings; and that is true of all
publications by the FSF.
In fact, it is TC's original post which would count as
reckless and abusive.
--
With Warm Regards, | Open Management Software Inc.
Harmanjit Singh. | 5600 Mowry School Rd., #180, Newark CA 94560, USA.
| Ph: 1-510-360-1107, Fax: 1-510-360-1112
| Email: harman@omsi.com
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2673
**************************************
