[8912] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2529 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu May 7 13:17:33 1998
Date: Thu, 7 May 98 10:00:31 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 7 May 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2529
Today's topics:
Re: "perldoc -f funcname" fails <brianm@kodak.com>
Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?) (Mitchell Morris)
Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?) (Chris Nandor)
Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?) <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?) <upsetter@shore.net>
Re: Date::Manip on NT <keithmur@mindspring.com>
Re: Ever Wonder Why Not Everyone Uses Modules? (John Porter)
Re: Ever Wonder Why Not Everyone Uses Modules? (John Porter)
Re: Graphing databases, need info (Honza Pazdziora)
Grieving our dying community (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Re: Grieving our dying community <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: Grieving our dying community (Stuart McDow)
Re: Grieving our dying community (Tina Marie Holmboe)
Re: Help with comma seperated file with "'s inside fiel <tomc@kendeco.com>
Re: How to export constants in modules without C code (Ken Fox)
Newbie question: how do I..... <bushong@bigger.com>
Re: Passing type AV * ? (Ken Fox)
Re: Perl/Wall lingo question (John Porter)
Re: problem with cat (John Klassa)
Re: require "file.sub": which script called it? <quednauf@nortel.co.uk>
Re: Rotating HTML using Perl <mps@shellus.com>
tr/[\000-\177]/[\200-\377]/ doesn't work for '[' <"xuming "@ email.unc.edu>
Re: Using executable pathname to define include path <dennism@cyrix.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:21:50 -0400
From: Brian Mathis <brianm@kodak.com>
To: Larry Rosler <lr@hpl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: "perldoc -f funcname" fails
Message-Id: <3551DF9E.6087976A@kodak.com>
[posted and emailed]
Larry Rosler wrote:
> Many submissions here aim Perl users at the descriptions of specific
> functions by "perldoc -f funcname". On the installation of perl
> 5.004_03 that I use, this produces a diagnostic that starts "Unknown
> option: f". But "perldoc perlfunc" works fine. How can I correct this
> installation?
> The output of "perl -V" is:
> Summary of my perl5 (5.0 patchlevel 4 subversion 3) configuration:
Upgrade to 5.004_04 :)
Brian Mathis
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 15:02:33 GMT
From: mgm@unpkhswm04.bscc.bls.com (Mitchell Morris)
Subject: Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?)
Message-Id: <slrn6l3j88.hrm.mgm@unpkhswm04.bscc.bls.com>
On Thu, 07 May 1998 14:44:18 GMT, Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> wrote:
[snip]
># However, we as a programming community find this user-unfriendly behavior
># completely unacceptable in every other aspect of our professional lives. Why
># would we want to hold it up as the model of interaction when it comes to perl?
>
>I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not being
>user-unfriendly, I am simply stating the facts as I see them.
I was referring to CPAN itself, not your position. I apologize for the
confusion.
># In almost every other situation where we need to find our way about a mass
># of information, we provide search tools. In those cases where there aren't
># any, we write them. We, as an Internet using community, have specified through
># our continued behavior that we expect to be able to do keyword searching on
># just about everything.
>
>Since when does CPAN not have keyword searching??
>
> http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/SFgate/WAIT4CPAN.html
> http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/search/cpan-search.html
In what sense is this part of CPAN? Are these linked from any randomly selected
CPAN site? Are they part of CPAN.pm? Perhaps it's my misunderstanding, but
I thought that CPAN.html asserted that CPAN was both the multiplexer and the
archive itself. I would claim that this additional site, available through
"special knowledge for the anointed" is not part of CPAN.
>For crying out loud. And people wonder why I am frustrated.
>
>--
>Chris Nandor mailto:pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/
>MacPerl: Power and Ease (ISBN 1881957322), http://www.ptf.com/macperl/
>%PGPKey = ('B76E72AD', [1024, '0824090B CE73CA10 1FF77F13 8180B6B6'])
I don't wonder why you're frustrated ... the people in my township who keep
voting for zoning laws to prevent new residents are in the same boat. In
the same vein, I think you are comfortable with your familiarity with some
subset of CPAN and feel it inappropriate that the great unwashed keep trying
to show up and claim kinship. My kneejerk response is to agree with you, but
I don't like the way I would reek afterwards.
As a brief aside, nice hand-waving on the other points mentioned in my post.
--
Mitchell Morris
mmorris@mindspring.com
Coward, n.:
One who in a perilous emergency thinks with his legs.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:34:36 GMT
From: pudge@pobox.com (Chris Nandor)
Subject: Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?)
Message-Id: <pudge-0705981132440001@192.168.0.3>
In article <slrn6l3j88.hrm.mgm@unpkhswm04.bscc.bls.com>,
mmorris@mindspring.com wrote:
# ># In almost every other situation where we need to find our way about a mass
# ># of information, we provide search tools. In those cases where there aren't
# ># any, we write them. We, as an Internet using community, have specified
# through
# ># our continued behavior that we expect to be able to do keyword searching on
# ># just about everything.
# >
# >Since when does CPAN not have keyword searching??
# >
# > http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/SFgate/WAIT4CPAN.html
# > http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/search/cpan-search.html
#
# In what sense is this part of CPAN? Are these linked from any randomly
# selected
# CPAN site? Are they part of CPAN.pm? Perhaps it's my misunderstanding, but
# I thought that CPAN.html asserted that CPAN was both the multiplexer and the
# archive itself. I would claim that this additional site, available through
# "special knowledge for the anointed" is not part of CPAN.
CPAN::WAIT is installed with Bundle::CPAN, and a simple perusal of the
documents tells what it does. You probably have it installed. Try man
CPAN::WAIT. You can access WAIT stuff right from the command line.
% perl -MCPAN -e shell
cpan shell -- CPAN exploration and modules installation (v1.36)
ReadLine support enabled
cpan> wq pudge
CPAN: CPAN::WAIT loaded ok
Searching for 'pudge'
query returnes 19 hits, 10 hits follow
1 10.318 Mac::Apps::MacPGP - Interface to MacPGP 2.6.3
2 10.209 File::Sort - Sort a file or merge sort multiple files.
3 10.209 Mac::Comm::OT_PPP - Interface to Open Transport PPP
4 10.209 D'oh - Debug module
5 10.209 Mac::Apps::Launch - MacPerl module to launch applications
6 10.209 Mac::Apps::Anarchie - Interface to Anarchie 2.01+
7 3.537 Mac::Comm::OT_PPP - Interface to Open Transport PPP
8 3.183 Mac-Comm-OT_PPP README
9 3.183 Mac-Apps-Anarchie README
10 3.183 Mac-Apps-Launch README
Type 'wr <number>' or 'wd <number>' to examine the results
cpan>
You can probably do this right now on your machine. And I don't mind that
you didn't bother to read your docs before asking about search facilities,
what I mind is that you assumed there were none and attacked that fact
before reading all your CPAN docs.
--
Chris Nandor mailto:pudge@pobox.com http://pudge.net/
MacPerl: Power and Ease (ISBN 1881957322), http://www.ptf.com/macperl/
%PGPKey = ('B76E72AD', [1024, '0824090B CE73CA10 1FF77F13 8180B6B6'])
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:55:50 GMT
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
To: mmorris@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?)
Message-Id: <8cg1imf545.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Mitchell" == Mitchell Morris <mgm@unpkhswm04.bscc.bls.com> writes:
>> Since when does CPAN not have keyword searching??
>>
>> http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/SFgate/WAIT4CPAN.html
>> http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/search/cpan-search.html
Mitchell> In what sense is this part of CPAN? Are these linked from
Mitchell> any randomly selected CPAN site? Are they part of CPAN.pm?
perldoc CPAN::WAIT =>
NAME
CPAN::WAIT - adds commands to search a WAIT4CPAN server to
the CPAN shell()
SYNOPSIS
perl -MCPAN -e shell
> wq au=wall
> wr 3
> wd 3
> wl 20
> wh
> wh wq
DESCRIPTION
CPAN::WAIT adds some comands to the CPAN shell() to perform
searches on a WAIT server. It connects to a WAIT server
using a simple protocoll resembling NNTP as described in
RFC977. It uses the WAIT::Client module to handle this
connection. This in turn inherits from Net::NNTP from the
libnet package. So you need Net::NNTP to use this module.
[...]
print "Just another Perl hacker," # but not what the media calls "hacker!" :-)
## legal fund: $20,990.69 collected, $186,159.85 spent; just 117 more days
## before I go to *prison* for 90 days; email fund@stonehenge.com for details
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@teleport.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 15:54:31 GMT
From: Art Cohen <upsetter@shore.net>
Subject: Re: CPAN & Module gripes (was Re: Ever Wonder...?)
Message-Id: <6islfn$aru@fridge.shore.net>
In comp.lang.perl.misc Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com> wrote:
: I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not being
: user-unfriendly, I am simply stating the facts as I see them.
You have frequently described CPAN as a "baptism by fire". Well, unless
Perl is a religion and we are its initiates, that smacks of
user-unfriendliness. It's the typical computer-jock attitude of "It was
hard for me to learn this so I see no reason to make it easy for anyone
else."
--Art
National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:48:13 -0500
From: "Keith G. Murphy" <keithmur@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Date::Manip on NT
Message-Id: <3551D7BA.12A544CD@mindspring.com>
Hmmm, if 'use Manip' works and 'use Date::Manip' doesn't, sounds to me
like Manip.pm is in the wrong place. In my distribution (Sarathy, or
"standard" on Win95), it's in c:\perl\lib\site\Date (well, actually its
under d:\perl5 etc. for me, but that's unimportant), and can be found
because c:\perl\lib\site is in the @INC path of the perl executable.
Where is it on your machine? How did it get *there*? What is your
distribution? The answer may be to move some files around or reinstall
the distribution, depending on the answers to these questions,
Feinberg's kitchen notwithstanding...
iug piug wrote:
>
> Yes, I am clueless, but stuck also...
>
> I'm trying to use Date::Manip on a NT box. I include "use Manip;"
> (without quotes) because "use Date::Manip;" (without quotes) causes
> "Can't locate Date/Manip.pm..." to display. The subroutine I'm trying to
> run is "$in[3] = &Date_DaysSince999($m,$d,$y);", and I constantly get
> "Undefined subroutine &main::Date_DaysSince999 called...".
>
> Any ideas as to what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Thanks
>
> Andy Biegel
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:14:10 GMT
From: jdporter@min.net (John Porter)
Subject: Re: Ever Wonder Why Not Everyone Uses Modules?
Message-Id: <MPG.fbb9b34dff7235f9896ac@news.min.net>
On Wed, 06 May 1998 17:25:16 -0500,
in article <MNOU1IIelYrK092yn@netins.net>,
phdss@writeme.comm (Brett Tabke) wrote:
> Paolo Ciccone <p-ciccone@usa.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> "TC" == Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> writes:
> >
> >[a lot of stuff deleted]
> >
> > TC> You are insane. Please go fetch a document by URL, including
> > TC> redirect handling, and then parse the HTML by yourself into a
> > TC> tree structure that you can traverse for modification. Go
> > TC> ahead. You're a programmer, after all.
> >
> >Tom, isn't ironic how greedy and spoiled people are ? You write your
> >stuff for free, you documente it and post on the net. You prepare a
> >great Web site and support all kind of newbies repeating over and over
> >the same answers. But they still complain. Better laugh at this
> >otherwise you loose faith in the human race :)
>
> How is encouraging people to write there own programs greedy or
> in any way spoiled?
Paolo's comment wasn't directed at people who refuse to use modules.
If anything, it's the people (like me) who build on the work of
others without a second's thought, who should be called spoiled.
I thank the gods for the wealth of modules available.
By the way, you still haven't responded to tchrist's challenge to
write a www user agent without the use of modules, libraries, or
anyone else's code. I for one would be very interested to know
just how long it takes you, and how big the program is. Use any
language -- ML, or 65k machine code, if you like.
> If the answer to every question becomes "just use module X" then we
> are turning Perl from programming community into a simple user base.
> (which is already happening).
It is not happening. You would know that, if you read this newsgroup
for very long. For a quick cluifying experience, hit DejaNews.
> If you think that the answer to every question is "use a module"
> then your dream for the next version Perl must be:
>[...]
> If you agree with that, then your idea of Perl is not of programming
> language, but a high frills batch language.
I wonder where you're getting this drivel.
No one on clpm wants or expects Perl to become this.
> Look, I am just trying to fight a little for the future of Perl and
> its vast diversity.
You're really directing your energies in the wrong direction.
Perl will continue to be the great things that it is, and more so,
regardless. Pick another fight.
> If we all do things the exact same way with the
> exact same routines, then we need to make it official and rename the
> group to "perl.help.desk-its.been.written-just.use.a.module".
I think it's pretty clear that will never be the case, perl being
the dynamic language that it is. Do you even know the first thing
about object-oriented programming?
> Disagreeing with the way a module is implemented or the methodology
> to carry the task, is far different from criticizing the quality of
> the programming.
Only partly. Programming is about both design and implementation.
Besides, you have criticized "the quality of the programming", very
unfairly and groundlessly. How can I think otherwise than that you
haven't looked at the code? Or maybe you're just a very poor judge
of perl code.
John Porter
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 15:28:25 GMT
From: jdporter@min.net (John Porter)
Subject: Re: Ever Wonder Why Not Everyone Uses Modules?
Message-Id: <MPG.fbb9e8a36e9c9129896ad@news.min.net>
On Tue, 05 May 1998 17:14:00 -0500,
in article <o84T1IIelAHS092yn@netins.net>,
phdss@writeme.comm (Brett Tabke) wrote:
> <g> Taken out-of-context, sure, but because you don't like chopped
> walnuts on top, doesn't mean you don't like the banana split -
The solution is not necessarily to build a new banana split from
scratch. You can scrape off the walnuts. You can ask the jerk
to not put them on yours.
> ... If you don't want to use
> modules, then don't (always other ways to do things).
You can not realistically write a large application without the
use of modules, even if you write them yourself.
Also, I think you're glossing over the fact that all the modules
are in sourcecode form, and you have the freedom to modify them
to suit your needs. But unless you're extracting a few lines
that do the one little bit you need, you're better off leaving
it as a module.
> .... TC: you
> always seem to come back with that "perl is this" or "perl is that"
> Such as in another post in the last couple of days you said "perl is
> about gluing things together", implying that there is a right way
> and only one way to do it.
Just because you inferred it doesn't mean Tom implied it. People
with strong opinions tend to infer things that aren't there...
> Another perspective from my mostly pure assembler background, using
> other peoples code is also known as copyright infringement or
> simply: software piracy. That general attitude is one that has
> stuck with me even when using languages that encourage it via
> pre-canned libraries or subroutines - it just don't seem right.
Live and learn.
> >You are insane. Please go fetch a document by URL, including redirect
> >handling,
>
> #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w
> $url = "www.perl.com";
> $raw_html = `lynx -source $url`;
>[...]
Great, if you don't mind using the approximately 100,000 lines of C code
written by someone else.
John Porter
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:06:56 GMT
From: adelton@fi.muni.cz (Honza Pazdziora)
Subject: Re: Graphing databases, need info
Message-Id: <adelton.894553616@nemesis>
ryan@mail.ramresearch.com (Ryan McGuigan) writes:
> write something like that. Does anyone know where I can get something to
> generate the graphs?? Thanks, your help is much appreciated.
Check your closest CPAN for module GIFgraph.
Hope this helps,
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honza Pazdziora | adelton@fi.muni.cz | http://www.fi.muni.cz/~adelton/
I can take or leave it if I please
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 15:34:28 GMT
From: nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Subject: Grieving our dying community
Message-Id: <6iska4$76d@fridge.shore.net>
I'm not sure if I was stupid when I believed that Usenet was utopian.
Or was I just dreaming the past (almost) decade away? Or was it both
dreaming and stupidity? Whichever it was, I can't recall that I've
*ever* seen a more selfish, boorish and misguided group of individuals
than many of those I've seen on comp.lang.perl.misc.
I'm not addressing the complaining per se, as there's always been
complaining on Usenet (and everywhere), and I'm not downplaying
people's criticisms of CPAN and Perl and attitudes, but I AM attacking
many people here who lack the dedication to changing things when they
don't suit the person.
I remember a time (even up to a year or so ago) when people would
complain about software or systems, BUT they'd write a patch so that
the software could do what they wanted it to. They would submit this
patch to the software's maintainer for approval. In all likelihood,
this patch would benefit *many more people than one individual*, NOT
just the one person who was seeking a fix.
The "where do you want to go today?" generation has taken the
developer out of the "programmer" by removing the vital, development
tools from the environment and precanning software. In the "olden"
days, developers were forced to build software themselves, and needed
a thorough knowledge of these tools to do so. Now, the programmer is
forced into *buying* their development tools -- and most M$ users
don't/won't purchase these tools because most software is built to run
out of the box. This has lead to hundreds IF NOT THOUSANDS of
complaints about "broken" software WITHOUT most users offering ANY
type of patch or constructive solution to the problems that they're
experiencing. By not bundling their "operating system" with
development tools, M$ has forced their users into helplessness by
putting them in a situation of dependancy with software companies.
This puts an UNDUE burden on Perl developers to support the Win32
platform without very much contribution by the users; as we've noticed
in the CPAN and modules thread, users *expect* that Perl will
"automagically" support their platform without the complainers
offering any/many constructive solutions.
There's something to be said for magic and support, but there's MORE
to be said for the tremendous amount of effort it takes to support all
of these platforms "transparently". And up to this moment on
comp.lang.perl.misc, I've not seen more than one or two *suggestions*
about improving CPAN. I've only seen complaints.
What is it with many of you people? Why do you complain complain
complain without offering any solutions? You're destroying all of the
good things that the free software community was built on: dedication,
contribution and openness. If not for the hard work of many people in
the past, many of you who hadn't intended to be in the technical field
-- programming, being a sysadmin, or whatever, would be hocking water
coolers over the phone or something unprofitable and free of dignity.
Since someone spent infinite amounts of time and gave something to
*everyone* (FOR FREE), in return, you should be looking for ways to
give back the community.
>From this moment forth, I implore you to prove me wrong. Whether you
like my sentiments or not, that's fine. I'm convinced that the
ill-treatment people are receiving here and on other places on Usenet
is because of the predator-prey relationship that's been forced onto
the very people who so generously gave and gave then gave some more.
I'm going to continue advocating free software and documentation and
helping when or where I can. And I challenge the complainers to do
the same.
Thanks for your time.
--
Nathan V. Patwardhan
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 16:10:39 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Grieving our dying community
Message-Id: <6ismdv$ddj$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
Well put.
This is your computer (and in fact, the Net) on Microsoft. Welcome to
the consumerist "gimme gimme bitch bitch gimme gimme gimme" computing
of the least common demominator and greatest market penetration, the
world of users not creators. I believe the typical response will be that
since (their words) you can't fight it, you should just cross your legs
behind your neck and think of England, as your "market" continues to be
"penetrated".
--tom
--
"Most of what I've learned over the years has come from signatures."
--Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 16:15:40 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: Grieving our dying community
Message-Id: <6ismnc$n4a$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan) writes:
>
> The "where do you want to go today?" generation has taken the
> developer out of the "programmer" by removing the vital, development
> tools from the environment and precanning software.
No kidding. Point. Click. Point. Click. Point. Click. Brain Atrophy.
> In the "olden" days, developers were forced to build software
> themselves, and needed a thorough knowledge of these tools to do so.
> Now, the programmer is forced into *buying* their development tools
> -- and most M$ users don't/won't purchase these tools because most
> software is built to run out of the box. This has lead to hundreds
> IF NOT THOUSANDS of complaints about "broken" software WITHOUT most
> users offering ANY type of patch or constructive solution to the
> problems that they're experiencing. By not bundling their
> "operating system" with development tools, M$ has forced their users
> into helplessness by putting them in a situation of dependancy with
> software companies.
This, I think, is a very accurate description of the current state of
affairs. That people would accept this paradigm is even more
telling. It is truly sad.
> What is it with many of you people? Why do you complain complain
> complain without offering any solutions? You're destroying all of
> the good things that the free software community was built on:
> dedication, contribution and openness.
Why? Simple. They're used to being spoon-fed. They don't know how to
program. They know nothing of software engineering. <WHINY VOICE>It's
too *hard*.....</WHINY VOICE> They don't know how to offer
solutions. All they can do is point click point click point click and
complain. Ultimately, they don't want to program a computer, they want
to use an appliance.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"It is obvious that about 750,000 people ago, Austin was a wonderful City."
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 16:49:59 GMT
From: tina@scandinaviaonline.se (Tina Marie Holmboe)
Subject: Re: Grieving our dying community
Message-Id: <6isonn$avj$1@news1.sol.no>
In article <6iska4$76d@fridge.shore.net>,
nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan) writes:
I've not been following clpm for a while - work tend to take it out of a
person, especially when one work for some of the people Nathan describe
in his post.
However... whilst I agree with most it, I find - feel - that part of it
is quite unfair. Specifically:
> What is it with many of you people? Why do you complain complain
> complain without offering any solutions? You're destroying all of the
> good things that the free software community was built on: dedication,
CPAN *can* be improved - I for one have have spent too much time actually
digging useful things out of it to check for problems. But it seems to me
that you also sweep the same broom over most everything, Nathan.
I often see errors in programs - emacs, for instance - which I would like
to see corrected. Once in a blue moon I point out, or complain, about such
problems. But: I am not competent to hand in a patch to emacs. I could be,
had I the time to become so. But I don't have that time either.
I don't feel like a bad person for pointing out errors, even when I am in
no situation to offer a patch or solution. I understand the anger; I too
have done work which I've placed in the public domain, though none of this
is available on CPAN.
Yes, I can understand this critique towards those that do nothing *but*
complain, with absolutely no depth, and no thought to what has gone into
the products they complain about.
But please, Nathan... there are those among us who would complain if we
found errors, but could not offer anything helpful apart from that. There is
an inherent value in complaints; if they actually point out something which
is a problem, and not simply stupidity...
I came into this late; I've not read it all. But still; what you wrote
struck me as very true about some users, some complaints - but very unfair
to others. Please don't use the same comb to brush us all away ?
> I'm going to continue advocating free software and documentation and
> helping when or where I can. And I challenge the complainers to do
> the same.
Those of us who are "inbetween" - who use Perl as our daily tool to get
things done, to put bread on our respective tables - do try. I don't think
we complain too much; and when we can, we help.
There is a small minority who make all the noise without attempting to
provide solutions. There is another group of us who *make* noise when we
find something is wrong, but who atleast *try* to the best of our often
limited ability.
--
Tina Marie Holmboe
Application Developer (Geeks'R'Us) [tina@tech.scandinaviaonline.se]
Scandinavia Online AB Development Dept. (+46) 08 587 81000 (switchboard)
(+46) 08 587 81189 (direct)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:26:51 -0500
From: Tom Cross <tomc@kendeco.com>
To: Jonathan Feinberg <jdf@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Help with comma seperated file with "'s inside fields
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980507092307.13498K-100000@meridian.kendeco.com>
On 6 May 1998, Jonathan Feinberg wrote:
> Tom Cross <tomc@kendeco.com> writes:
>
> > I need to read in a comma seperated file with text fields that have "'s
> > around it.
>
> There is a module that does this.
>
> Module id = Text::CSV
> DESCRIPTION Manipulate comma-separated value strings
> CPAN_USERID ALANCITT (Alan Citterman)
> CPAN_VERSION 0.01
> CPAN_FILE ALANCITT/Text-CSV-0.01.tar.gz
>
> To reach the CPAN, go to
>
> http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/
And it works GREAT for NORMAL comma serperated files. However, if you
have to read in pointy-haired-comma-seperated-files, it doesn't work.
That was the point of my post. The files I have to deal with have
embedded single double quotes (huh?).
For example:
"PART NUMBER","DESCRIPTION PENCIL 2" YELLOW",1,2,3,4,5
In order for this file to work with the Text::CSV modules, the 2" part
should be escaped like this: 2"" and then it works. However, none of my
files are escaped and there are about 800 parts that have quotes inside
the description.
So, I just modified the Text::CSV module to work with non-escaped double
quotes and it works just nifty!
Now I can get down to SERIOUSLY using/learning perl!
Thanks to all who offered help and solutions!
--
Tom Cross Voice: 320-253-1020 FAX: 320-253-6956
System Administrator E-mail: tomc@kendeco.com
Kendeco Industrial Supply http://www.kendeco.com
St Cloud Area Linux Users Group: http://www.scalug.org
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 16:51:23 GMT
From: kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com (Ken Fox)
Subject: Re: How to export constants in modules without C code
Message-Id: <6isoqb$k3b3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
Ephrayim "EJ" Naiman <enaiman@ndsisrael.com> writes:
> I'm trying to figure out how to make export constants in modules
> without having to generate any C code ...
>
> use my_module;
>
> $ret_code = my_module::func($foo1, $foo2);
> if($ret_code == ERR_NOT_FOUND)
Use @EXPORT and prototyped subroutines:
package my_module;
require Exporter;
@ISA = qw(Exporter);
@EXPORT = qw(ERR_NOT_FOUND);
sub ERR_NOT_FOUND () { 47 }
Using EXPORT is considered rude though. Use EXPORT_OK to allow
your users to choose which constants to import.
- Ken
--
Ken Fox (kfox@ford.com) | My opinions or statements do
| not represent those of, nor are
Ford Motor Company, Powertrain | endorsed by, Ford Motor Company.
Analytical Powertrain Methods Department |
Software Development Section | "Is this some sort of trick
| question or what?" -- Calvin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:12:37 -0400
From: Dave Bushong <bushong@bigger.com>
Subject: Newbie question: how do I.....
Message-Id: <3551CF64.94E31289@yahoo.com>
I needed a perl routine to take a line of input and produce one word per
line on the output. Instead of even thinking of the best way to do
this, try it, debug it, try it again, and finally get it working, I had
a better idea.
I have a file called PerlFAQ.html and a long time ago I made a button on
my netscape toolbar that says Perl FAQ". It's even faster than a
bookmark. You know, it's there next to "Lookup" and "New and Cool". I
press it, and a few seconds later I have the whole FAQ there in front of
me. I press Alt-F (for "find") and search for 'one word per line'.
Nothing. I search for 'one word'. Nothing. I search for 'word'. I
get a match on "How do I capitalize all the words on a line?". Dern,
not what I wanted. I hit "Enter", to search for the next hit. I get
"How do I process each word on each line?" Yahoo! I click on that
question, and get hyper-linked down to near the end of the FAQ, in
perlfaq6, and there is a snippet of code that I copy, switch to my
source code window, and paste into my program.
The whole thing took about 12 seconds.
In contrast, it took about five minutes to make this posting to c.l.p.m.
I'm not trying to be a smart ass (although it comes naturally); I am
trying to show that it really really really really is better to read the
FAQ before posting.
Really.
Now if I could only come up with a better "subject" line (thanks, Tom).
Dave
p.s. You can get your very own copy of that HTML FAQ at
ftp://ftp.wownet.net/pub2/PERL/doc/FAQs/FAQ/PerlFAQ.html . Click on it,
and save it to your hard disk locally so you don't have to pull it up
from the Web whenever you want to look at it.
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 16:33:50 GMT
From: kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com (Ken Fox)
Subject: Re: Passing type AV * ?
Message-Id: <6isnpe$k3b2@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>
ced@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Charles DeRykus) writes:
> Kaleem Siddiqi <siddiqi-kaleem@cs.yale.edu> wrote:
> >> ....
> >> av_store(array, xx + yy * width, SvREFCNT_inc(val));
> >
> >Thanks for the tip! Can you tell me why its necessary
> >to increment the reference count to val, i.e., SvREFCNT_inc(val) ?
>
> Purely a guess, but, the garbage collector seems to get
> a bit too zealous if you don't do this.
Nope. The garbage collector is just doing its job -- the problem
is not incrementing the ref count is a bug. ;)
The perl scalar 'val' is a subroutine argument, which means it's on
the argument stack. Things on the argument stack are temporary, i.e.
mortal. Putting a value into an array doesn't modify the ref count.
(You can argue all you want that it *should*, but perl as it is doesn't.)
If you don't bump the ref count yourself, 'val' will be considered
garbage after the subroutine returns.
If you know C, this is the same thing as putting a pointer to a
function argument into an array. After the function returns the
argument doesn't exist and you have a dangling pointer.
The perl error you see is sort of the equivalent to a dangling
pointer in C.
- Ken
--
Ken Fox (kfox@ford.com) | My opinions or statements do
| not represent those of, nor are
Ford Motor Company, Powertrain | endorsed by, Ford Motor Company.
Analytical Powertrain Methods Department |
Software Development Section | "Is this some sort of trick
| question or what?" -- Calvin
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:32:23 GMT
From: jdporter@min.net (John Porter)
Subject: Re: Perl/Wall lingo question
Message-Id: <MPG.fbbad8286cf47939896af@news.min.net>
On 7 May 1998 00:11:34 GMT,
in article <6iqu7m$64r3@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>,
kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com (Ken Fox) wrote:
> jdporter@min.net (John Porter) writes:
> > kfox@pt0204.pto.ford.com (Ken Fox) wrote:
> > > Anyways, the math notation is useless in computer science (unless the
> > > problem domain of the program you're writing is mathematics... ;)
> >
> > I don't think I'd agree with that. Computer science is built on
> > mathematics.
>
> Some people seem to think so anyways. ;) When was the last time
> you formally proved the correctness of a program?
What, it's been a while, therefore CS is not founded on math?
> (except for algorithm design and analysis)
...which I do all the time, actually. That's a mighty big "except".
> Also consider an array of hashes. That can't possibly be
> a vector because hashes are unordered!
Actually that doesn't matter. (This concept is so simple, I can't
believe people are having such a hard time with it.)
For any data structure, there is a space defined as the set of all
its possible values. Any single instance of the structure is
a vector into that space.
> Arrays are not vectors.
It's certainly not my intention to prove, in any domain, that
array == vector.
But historically, there is a pretty good reason why arrays
have been, from time to time, called vectors.
John Porter
------------------------------
Date: 7 May 1998 14:45:56 GMT
From: klassa@aursgh.aur.alcatel.com (John Klassa)
Subject: Re: problem with cat
Message-Id: <6ishf4$t4o$1@aurwww.aur.alcatel.com>
On 6 May 1998 22:58:00 GMT, ? the platypus wrote:
->open (FILE, "<$_[0]") or die "Help Help can't open file, where going
->down";
What's wrong with just:
open FILE, $_[0] or die "Can't open file: $!\n";
(No quotes around the $_[0]...)
--
John Klassa / Alcatel Telecom / Raleigh, NC, USA <><
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:32:50 +0100
From: "Frank L. Quednau" <quednauf@nortel.co.uk>
To: Honza Pazdziora <adelton@fi.muni.cz>
Subject: Re: require "file.sub": which script called it?
Message-Id: <3551D421.667E5D35@nortel.co.uk>
Honza Pazdziora wrote:
> "Frank L. Quednau" <quednauf@nortel.co.uk> writes:
>
> > require "docfiling_.sub";
> >
> > How can I figure out within that subroutines file from which
> > script it has been called?
>
> Check the perlfunc man page for function caller.
>
> Hope this helps,
THANK YOU! I LIKE THIS NEWSGROUPS!
--
____________________________________________________________
Frank Quednau
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/~me51fq
________________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:01:37 -0500
From: Matt Sisk <mps@shellus.com>
Subject: Re: Rotating HTML using Perl
Message-Id: <3551DAE1.E487CCF2@shellus.com>
Some mystery nospam freak said:
> The easiest way is to make a "template" file, which is just the page
> you want displayed with a <!--REPLACE TEXT HERE--> comment where you
> want the replaced text to go. Then you open the template file for
> reading, and open the "home page" for writing. In the while loop you
> do
>
> if ($_ eq "<!--REPLACE TEXT HERE-->")
> {
> print $textfile_stuff; # print stuff from other file
> }
>
> else
> (
> print $_; # print the normal page contents
> }
On the right track, for sure. I've found it useful when I do this sort
of thing to bracket the text area with two tags, something like:
<!-- BEGIN REPLACEMENT TEXT -->
...
<!-- END REPLACEMENT TEXT -->
That way, you can easily cull the old inserts.
--
Matt Sisk mps@shellus.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:25:10 -0400
From: xuming wang <"xuming "@ email.unc.edu>
Subject: tr/[\000-\177]/[\200-\377]/ doesn't work for '['
Message-Id: <6isncr$90l$1@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>
I also tried using hex (tr/[\x20-\7e]/[\xa1-\xfe]/ ), they can't change
character [ to 8-bit.
$_ ='[';
tr/[\000-\177]/[\200-\377]/;
print;
[
s/([\000-\177])/chr(ord($1)+128)/ge works, but you know I don't want to do this.
any idea?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:30:45 -0500
From: Dennis Marsa <dennism@cyrix.com>
Subject: Re: Using executable pathname to define include path
Message-Id: <3551C595.3185C5CB@cyrix.com>
> Andy Glew <glew@cs.wisc.edu> writes:
> :> Can the following can be done in Perl:
> :> discovery of the pathname of the executable, for use in defining module paths?
Don't forget about Graham Barr's rlib.pm (available on CPAN under his name)
which is another approach to solving this problem.
Dennis
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2529
**************************************
