[8289] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1906 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Feb 16 16:38:11 1998
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 13:02:58 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 16 Feb 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 1906
Today's topics:
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (Mark Kramer)
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (Chip Salzenberg)
Re: The Young Man and the Beach <gbarr@ti.com>
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (Craig Berry)
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (Bart Lateur)
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Re: The Young Man and the Beach <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: The Young Man and the Beach (I R A Aggie)
Re: Using getopts() and exec() <jamesr@aethos.co.uk.nospam>
Re: Using the Telnet module on Win32 <metcher@spider.herston.uq.edu.au>
Re: Who can give me a Pl. cgi example on NT to change L <webmaster@fccj.cc.fl.us>
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? (Bart Lateur)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:28:29 GMT
From: c28f62@world.std.com (Mark Kramer)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <EoHCFI.GK4@world.std.com>
In article <fl_aggie-1402981550230001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>,
I R A Aggie <fl_aggie@thepentagon.com> wrote:
>Is there anything wrong with being a "dirty beggar" or a shoeless child?
>Don't think so.
Then you don't agree with the fable? Tom msde it pretty clear that
these were the "bad guys".
>On the other hand, if they are unwilling to help themselves,
>why should I be bothered to help them?
And if they are willing to help themselves?
>Graham Barr isn't "just the rabble". If you knew anything about netlib,
>you'd know that.
I guess you didn't read the fable you are so busy defending, or maybe
you didn't understand the allegory. The beach is this newsgroup. When
the "Young Man" visited the beach, he didn't find anything BUT rabble.
Graham is here. You figure the rest of it out.
>The "rabble" in this case is the "gimme gimme gimme"
>crowd, which, for some reason, you seem to be one of their Champions.
When I stand up for those who don't say Gimme, when they are lumped
into "the rabble", I am somehow championing the gimme people. What
would cause a presumably intelligent person to come to that
conclusion?
>I'm _sure_ they'll thank you. Eventually. Maybe.
Well, I would have thought that those who got lumped int the class of
"rabble" who weren't would say "thank you", but I guess you won't. Did
I forget to mention, YOU were on the beach the day the Young Man saw
all the rabble.
>Which just happen to have a strong correlation with malformed, not easy to
>read posts.
Except he was jumping down the throats of people who were posting
properly formatted articles. Did you miss that? Must be.
>I myself post from one of those "wrong newsreaders". I am also very
>concious of my formatting...
Good for you. I bet you would be unhappy if you got flamed for using
shitty software and being clueless because you did.
>+ You tell me, Mr. Barr. Which is it?
>
>I suspect that your pride has been hurt.
That is usually the result of being insulted without cause.
>+ complains, and when he seems unable to simply walk past the beggars as
>+ I have been doing for years.
>
>I see. You aren't really the champion of the gimme crowd.
Duh.
>But apparently
>you have no compassion, either, to help those in need.
I don't call flaming people for using the software they are using "help",
when that software is not relevant to the problem.
>+ How dare I infest his beach? How dare I indeed.
>
>I believe you know where the door is? I'll be _quite_ happy to help
>you out, since you seem to be so unhappy here.
Agree with you or leave. I see. There was a time on Usenet when people
could have differences of opinion without ths sort of ultimatum.
>Then he knows, doesn't he? Ought of curiousity, why do you care about
I just said he ought to know what he is doing to himself. If he doesn't
care, why do you?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:51:30 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <6c7v5c$vb9$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to shaker@netusa1.net:
>2. I am writing this through DejaNews. My Internet Explorer newsreader
>DOES mess up lines. I do not know how to fix it. I do know that if I
>search DejaNews/ post in appropriate groups, I will be able to solve this.
>I do plan to do this sometime. However, I do not have time and energy
>for this, at the moment.
Well, that's fairly inconsiderate. Consider all the collective hours
that your readers will spend reading your articles. Your moments of
research are too valuable to spend saving the rest of the world hours
of discomfort caused by your own writings?
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
"Hoist the failure sails, men! We're goin' home!" // MST3K
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
Like Perl? Want to help out? The Perl Institute: www.perl.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:21:09 -0600
From: Graham Barr <gbarr@ti.com>
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <34E87585.3DDF6222@ti.com>
Mark Kramer wrote:
>
> In article <34E8478E.E80EB738@ti.com>, Graham Barr <gbarr@ti.com> wrote:
> >Mark Kramer wrote:
> >> You tell me, exactly, what I was supposed to be grateful
> >> for in the fable Tom posted. Was I supposed to be grateful that he
> >> compared all of us to dirty beggars and shoeless children?
> >
> >Tom did not compare you, or anyone else, to dirty beggars. He simply
> >posted a fable which had some resemblance to what is happening on
> >this group.
>
> Very good. You contradicted yourself in just two sentences. If there is
> some "resemblance", there is a comparison.
But it was you who decided to compre yourself with the beggars,
no where in the text did Tom say that *all* the people on this group
were the beggars, that was your interpretation. Different people
interperet things differently. You decided to take this fable
as a personal insult.
> >No I do not exclude myself, but then I did not take it personally
> >either.
>
> That's nice. Some people take personal insults personally. In any case,
> was this the part I was to be grateful for?
I have learnt the hard way not to take things on the net personally,
as they very rarly are personal.
> >oo, you seem so wound up, belive me it is not worth it, just calm down
>
> You seem to be a part of this discussion, Mr. Barr. Are you calm?
I am very calm as I have no problem with what Tom wrote, actually
I thought it was a little funny.
> Now, I notice, you were not able to tell me what I was to be so grateful
> for, so your comment about "ungrateful" earlier must have been a typo.
You should be grateful that there are people on this list who are
here to just "help", Tom is just one of those people.
> >I can assure you that there are *very* few people in this group
> >who would agree that Tom's purpose of reading this group is for
> >anything other than to help.
>
> Then his actions do not match his purpose.
Different people do things in different ways, once you learn to accept
that you will find it a lot easier to get on with others on the net.
--
Originality is the ability to conceal your source.
------------------------------
Date: 15 Feb 1998 18:31:49 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <6c7cal$43v$1@marina.cinenet.net>
John Bollenbacher (jhb@cts.com) wrote:
: I think that long-time participants in internet and computing in general
: forget
: how daunting it can all be to the neophyte. Try to cast your mind back
: to
[snip]
Might I please nominate this post for a 1998 Unintentional Irony Award?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:24:50 GMT
From: bart.mediamind@tornado.be (Bart Lateur)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <34f5087b.14642181@news.tornado.be>
How dare I. I can see Mark Kramer's point.
fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie) wrote:
>Graham Barr isn't "just the rabble". If you knew anything about netlib,
>you'd know that.
Which gives?
>+ How dare I infest his beach? How dare I indeed.
>
>I believe you know where the door is? I'll be _quite_ happy to help
>you out, since you seem to be so unhappy here.
One of the problems of this newgroup is that a small number of people
expect everybody to fall on their knees in appraisal. "Thank you, Perl
gods, thank you for your gift. Thank you for punishing me into
correcting my malformatted posts".
You just sound like the Inquisition.
YOU may think you deserve it. Many people (outside the small incrowd)
will think you're just an arrogant SOB.
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: 15 Feb 1998 15:58:28 GMT
From: nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <6c73b4$dm@fridge.shore.net>
Bart Lateur (bart.mediamind@tornado.be) wrote:
: One of the problems of this newgroup is that a small number of people
: expect everybody to fall on their knees in appraisal. "Thank you, Perl
*sigh* It's a shame that people don't follow netiquette anymore.
That's okay, all this pain you're experiencing will disappear when a
moderated NG appears.
--
Nathan V. Patwardhan
------------------------------
Date: 15 Feb 1998 16:38:32 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <6c75m8$p73$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
In comp.lang.perl.misc, bart.mediamind@tornado.be (Bart Lateur) writes:
:One of the problems of this newgroup is that a small number of people
:expect everybody to fall on their knees in appraisal.
^^^^^^^^^
"I do not think that that word means what you think it means."
--the Princess Bride
All problems pale before one solitary hurdle: the demographic shift
on the Net from a majority of competant programmers, researchers, and
self-starters engaged in a a gift-culture of mutual benefit to a totally
different one. I will let one contributor to my +inbox reference the
other group.
I totally agree. I long for those days when Usenet meant mainly UUCP
and friends, not because I'm some sort of neo-Luddite, but because
using Usenet meant that you'd [generic you] already achieved *some*
level of technical competence which made your postings mostly worth
reading. Now that the demographics of the net consists mainly of
mentally lazy jerkoffs who think that the world owes them something
for nothing, I suppose that it is the end of Usenet as we knew it. It
is a culture which while perhaps not a consequence, is certainly
consonant with the Microsloth world-view and dominance.
The point of this missive is to simply add my voice in support to
your views on both lazy solve-my-problem-for-me wankers and the
world-according-to-Bill.
:YOU may think you deserve it. Many people (outside the small incrowd)
:will think you're just an arrogant SOB.
Recall that your "small incrowd" of 20-100 developers are the ones
who actually do virtually all the work. This counts for a great deal:
remember that the Net is a meritocracy, not a gimmeacracy. For each
of us, there is perhaps a kiloPoB, even a myriaPoB, of others. This is
the very crux of the problem.
Contrary to the parvenus' perspective on the matter, Usenet is not
some cyberwelfare system awarding infinite free consulting handouts
to those who either can not or else will not work. The best it's ever
going to be is a way for folks to get pointers on how to do that work
*for themselves*. Eventually, they must learn to do their own work,
hire someone who can, or consider waiting tables.
If that's an offputting attitude, so be it. It happens to be reality,
and you if you don't care for reality, go change the world to make it
a better place for everyone.
Good luck,
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen tchrist@jhereg.perl.com
Some are born to perl, some achieve perl, and some have perl
thrust upon them.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:52:58 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-1502981152580001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <34f5087b.14642181@news.tornado.be>, bart.mediamind@tornado.be
(Bart Lateur) wrote:
+ How dare I. I can see Mark Kramer's point.
Please share. All I see is Kramer's Whine.
+ fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie) wrote:
+ >Graham Barr isn't "just the rabble". If you knew anything about netlib,
+ >you'd know that.
+
+ Which gives?
FTP services, among other networking services...
+ >+ How dare I infest his beach? How dare I indeed.
+ >I believe you know where the door is? I'll be _quite_ happy to help
+ >you out, since you seem to be so unhappy here.
+ One of the problems of this newgroup is that a small number of people
+ expect everybody to fall on their knees in appraisal.
I don't expect that, not at all. Courtesy and consideration, which seems
to be the point -- tho I'm not sure -- IS A TWO WAY STREET. You want me
to be considerate and courteous? sure, no problem. And the next time I
suggest that someone read the FAQ, or the documents, or execute a 'perldoc'
command, you will ensure that the person receiving that comment will be
courteous in return, and not whine about how mean I am for making them
do their own work, even if they wished for someone to do their work
for them?
+ "Thank you, Perl
+ gods, thank you for your gift. Thank you for punishing me into
+ correcting my malformatted posts".
Well, let's see...you could take a bit extra effort and time and format
your posts and make it _easier_ for me read, consider, and respond, or
you can leave 'em as-is, and make it so much easier for me to ignore 'em.
Again, courtesy is a two way street. But the victims of the malformed
posts are the _senders_. Their questions are much less likely to be
responded to. It is in their OWN INTEREST to format their posts better.
+ You just sound like the Inquisition.
Flattery will get you no where...
+ YOU may think you deserve it. Many people (outside the small incrowd)
+ will think you're just an arrogant SOB.
And they're entitled to their opinions. But that doesn't change the fact
that:
1. many answers they seek are on their own systems. they merely have to
learn that its there, and how to find them.
2. many answers are available via the WWW: thru the various search engines,
Dejanews, www.perl.com and CPAN.
3. questions posted to Usenet may or may not get answered, and the poster
of question may or may not ever see any answers. Tis the nature of the
beast.
4. and if they get answers, will they be _correct_ answers? an answer out
of the FAQ is probably correct.
5. questions to Usenet is the slowest method of getting a satisfactory
answer.
James
--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/doc/FAQs/cgi/idiots-guide.html>
------------------------------
Date: 16 Feb 98 19:45:36 GMT
From: "James Richardson" <jamesr@aethos.co.uk.nospam>
Subject: Re: Using getopts() and exec()
Message-Id: <01bd3b14$857899a0$26c0a4c1@kitkat.aethos.co.uk>
Grant Totten (EXCHANGE:CAR:5J42) <grantt@americasm01.nt.com> wrote in
article <34E713EE.EBAE6398@americasm01.nt.com>...
> Howdy all,
[...]
> development environment, based on clearcase. When you do a 'cleartool
> setview' (to get into clearcase), you get a new shell.
Yeah, I know... its quite irritating. The easiest way of preserving your
enviromment would be to do:
cleartool mount /vobs/your_vob
cleartool startview your_view
cd /view/your_view/vobs/your_vob
Basically you dont have to use the setview command......
Sorry my answer has nothing to do with perl though!
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:07:43 +1100
From: Jaime Metcher <metcher@spider.herston.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Using the Telnet module on Win32
Message-Id: <34E7BB8F.A55C5823@spider.herston.uq.edu.au>
Is this one really still unanswered, or is my newsreader playing tricks?
Anyway, ten days on you've probably figured out already that:
> BEGIN { push(@INC,"c:\\perl\\lib\\Net"); }
is unnecessary. In any case it's more cleanly written as:
use lib 'c:/perl/lib/Net/;
and that:
> $t = net Net::Telnet ("$hostname");
should be:
$t = new Net::Telnet ("$hostname");
BTW, I'm not sure about all those calls to waitfor. I think they could
be replaced by:
$t->prompt('ch%');
$t->login ($username, $password);
@out = $t->cmd('ls');
--
Jaime Metcher
Mike Noel wrote:
>
> I am trying to use the Net::Telnet package on a windows NT system with
> the following script ($hostname, $username, and $password all have valid
> value when the script is run).
>
> # This script tests the telnet package.
>
> BEGIN { push(@INC,"c:\\perl\\lib\\Net"); }
>
> use Net::Telnet;
>
> $t = net Net::Telnet ("$hostname");
>
> $t->open("$hostname");
> $t->waitfor('login:');
> $t->print("$username");
> $t->waitfor('Password:');
> $t->print("$password");
> $t->waitfor('ch%');
> $t->print("ls");
> $out = $t->waitfor('ch%');
> print $out,"\n\n";
>
> exit;
>
snip
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:39:44 GMT
From: Bill Jones <webmaster@fccj.cc.fl.us>
To: mrlee <mrlee@cycloria.com.tw>
Subject: Re: Who can give me a Pl. cgi example on NT to change Linux server email password.
Message-Id: <34E66271.C30CC34B@fccj.cc.fl.us>
You can't do it from NT, but you can on Linux, see
http://webmaster.fccj.org/Webmaster/WebPass.html
HTH,
Bill
mrlee wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a NT 4.0 - IIS 3.0 Web server, and a Linux mail server.
> Now, I want to support a CGI, using pl language, on IIS home page
> to change email account password, which on another Linux server.
> see the illustration,
>
> network
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> |
> |
> | ---------------|
> |----------------|
> | NT 4.0 | | Linux
> |
> | Web server | -- | ------>| mail server
> |
> | ---------------| | |
> |----------------|
> | |
> |-----------------| |
> | Pl. cgi | -----
> | to change |
> | mail passwd |
> |-----------------|
>
> If anyone know this kind of Pl. examples, please give me a hand !
>
> Please mail to mrlee@cycloria.com.tw
>
> Thanks !
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:24:07 GMT
From: bart.mediamind@tornado.be (Bart Lateur)
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <34f407f4.14507450@news.tornado.be>
Zenin <zenin@best.com> wrote:
>: Unfortunately, beginners and poor PC owners might not be aware of that... :-)
> >snip<
>
> C:\> wordpad perlfaq
> ^F
>
> It really can't be *that* hard... :^)
>
It won't work. Make that
wordpad perlfaq.pod
And the .POD extension is part of the problem, I think. Newbies to Perl
won't even begin to suspect that POD files are basically, well, text
files.
On a (PoB) PC you soon learn not to touch any files of which you're not
sure quite what they are, in order not to ruin anything. So people are
afraid to experiment.
I think that including a readme.TXT (not .POD!) file with the
distribution, pointing to the POD files, might be a first step. (If, of
course, that isn't already the case; I've never seen a PERL32
distribution up close).
Bart.
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 1906
**************************************
