[8259] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1877 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Feb 12 15:07:27 1998
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 12:01:35 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 12 Feb 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 1877
Today's topics:
The Young Man and the Beach <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
time for comp.lang.perl.more-needed ? (Re: repetitive F <xxTony.Curtis@vcpc.univie.ac.at>
training recommendation? (BFR Contractor)
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? <NerveGas@see_signature.com>
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? <ajohnson@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? (John Moreno)
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? <tmh@possibility.com>
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? (John Erjavec V)
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? <sfarrell+usenet@farrell.org>
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? (Gurusamy Sarathy)
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? (Jonathan Stowe)
Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude? <doug@tc.net>
Re: Year 2000 Compliance: Lawyers, Liars, and Perl (I R A Aggie)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 18:53:23 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: The Young Man and the Beach
Message-Id: <6bvgf3$rfp$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
Once upon a time, a sharp young man opens the window from his cottage and
contemplates a morning stroll. The day is clear and crisp, and the sea
air comes wafting up to town, inviting dalliance instead of work. So he
chooses a route that will take him down to the beach. It's been some time
since he's visited the beach, but as a child, he and his friends used to
cavort amongst waves and sand every day, delighting in the sea spume.
He wonders whether his boyhood friends still frequent their old haunt.
As he takes the path down to the water, he comes across a gypsy woman in
dirty but colorful rags, accompanied by her similarly attired children.
Crying out in plaintive supplication, she beseeches, "Young sir, I have
no job from which I might garner wages to feed my two hungry children.
You who are so fortunate and fine, can you not find it in your heart
to spare some of what you so obviously have in abundance to help us
who have nothing? It will mean so little to you, but so much to us.
Surely you can do something."
Touched by her plight, the man astounds the desperate woman by doling
out a few shillings. She thanks him profusely, nearly tearfully, and
she gives him a tiny, hand-crafted toy to eventually pass on to his
own children. He continues on his way, happy to have brought the woman
tears of relief and joy.
After no more than a score of yards further down the path, the young
man is stopped by a barefoot boy, who makes a request similar to the
one just heard. However, as he has no more shillings to spare, nor
even pennies, the man breaks in two the loaf of bread he was carrying for
his own repast, and he gives the bright-eyed youngster fully half of
what he has. The boy's eyes widen in surprise, and with a brief thank
you and good day, the lad scampers off to gnaw upon the crust.
Not more than a few minute pass by, when from behind him, the young
man hears something running up to him very quickly. He turns about
just in time to be knocked from his feet by an impish knave who was
unable to stop in time. As they pick themselves up and regard each
other, it strikes the young man that this underfed urchin must be none
other than the brother or cousin of other boy whom he just gave half a
loaf of bread. Without so much as an apology, though, this second boy
bursts out, "They said you have bread. I'm hungry. Give it to me."
The young man doesn't know what to do, but decides that today isn't the
day to deny charity to those in greater need than himself.
But as he reaches into his rucksack to withdraw the remaining half-loaf,
the impetuous beggar quickly jumps up and seizes the bread, then dashes
off along the sand. There's not even time to point out that the tidal
pools hold a veritable bounty of food if the boy would but look there.
The young man would even have demonstrated which cockles were the
tastiest, but now it's too late. So more than a bit miffed by this
ungrateful event, the young man sets off to complete his interrupted
jaunt, no longer sure the beach is what it used to be.
As he begins his trek back up from the shore, an able-bodied young gypsy,
proclaiming himself the father of seven suckling babes, implores the
distracted stroller to render unto him help such as was given to those
who preceded. Now lacking both coins and bread, the young man wonders
what to do, but then he remembers handbills he'd read posted all
about the town.
"Go to the lumberyard near the edge of town. They need many more strong
hands to help build the new coach station scheduled to begin within the
fortnight. Perchance there you will find work to feed your desperate
family. The station might even need a porter." Outwardly displeased
by this answer, the gypsy replies, "But I am hungry now. I need
money now. I do not have the leisure of waiting a fortnight before I
can eat. Can you not you give anything to me as you gave to my sons?"
The young man says that he is sorry, but that he has done the very best
he can, and suggests checking the lumberyard anyway. Obviously not
very happy by advice instead of tangibles, the gypsy makes disparaging
class-related remarks behind him as the increasingly flustered young
man hurries off the beach.
But he does not escape unscathed; no fewer than thirteen more similar
mendicants accost him before he reaches the comparative sanctuary of the
town proper. To each he suggests work at the lumberyard or station,
but his tone is no longer so cordial as when he began his journey.
In fact, it has soured into a brusque and impatient tone after so many
identical request.
Wholly unsatisfied with his instructions on how to put themselves to
work, they instead demand ephemeral but immediate remedies to their
squalid condition. In return for his increasingly gruff directions to the
lumberyard, they begin to assault the young man with rocks and branches,
leaving him with not only shattered spectacles, but welts and bruises
as well. His shillings and bread are gone, as his good will.
Later that day in the high street pub next to the apothecary shop which
he owns and manages, the young man nurses his unhappiness with a pint
of the local brew and recounts his matinal tribulations to his mates,
who appear perplexed by their friend's naoveti. "You actually went down
to the beach?" they inquire incredulously. "How could you not know that
it's been overrun by dozens of worthless gypsies? The beach is a total
wreck now. Might as well condemn her, burn out the shrubbery, and put
up a wire fence. Maybe even get some hounds to guard it."
This seems like a harsh response to the young man, but no one provides an
alternative. He explains his ignorance, "I've been sequestered away in
my shop, developing new unctions and philtres these past winter months.
I had no idea that our quaint hamlet had been invaded by such vagabonds!
But why must we burn down or fence off the beach, just on their account?
After all, "help wanted" signs are posted everywhere, with complete
information about building and manning the new coach station. Why can't
they just come into town, get a proper job, and toil for their bread
as the rest of us do? Why must we keep providing them facile handouts
forever?"
Overhearing these remarks, the vicar sets down his own pint and shakes his
head sadly as he tries to explain the gypsies' behaviour. "Although the
Travelling People may well speak English, they are not from our culture.
If you folk continue to judge them by your own standards, they will always
come up lacking. That's not their fault; it's yours. Don't you realise
that most can't even read these placards you're talking about? Even
if they could, it wouldn't help. In their culture, you never sign up for
long-term jobs. They don't hold still long enough to actually learn a
trade or profession. They'd rather be tinkerers, and move on, letting
the next troop come in to replace them. We can't change their natures."
"But we don't have to let them ruin our beach, do we, Vicar?" retorts
the barman. "No," says the cleric, "we don't. But if that means driving
them out, all you do is anger them and force them on to the next town
down the coast, and this time, with chips on their shoulders."
The young man is disturbed now, perhaps even depressed. It's beginning
to sound as though no tenable solution exists to these otiose beggars
taking over his idyllic beach of so many golden childhood memories
with his friends. Its current denizens can't read, they won't work,
and driving them out might be a solution that's worse than the problem.
The vicar helped see the situation without cultural bias, but not to
see feasible solution.
The chemist, dour now from the exchange, finishes his pint and goes back
to mixing his arcane powders and potions, hoping that they at least might
someday help the sick and the needy. Perhaps he won't return to the beach
after all. When a simple morning stroll becomes so arduous an event as
he has recently experienced, it really doesn't seem worth the trouble.
--
Tom Christiansen tchrist@perl.com
"Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy
is about telescopes." --E.W. Dijkstra
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 20:50:35 +0100
From: Remove xx to reply <xxTony.Curtis@vcpc.univie.ac.at>
Subject: time for comp.lang.perl.more-needed ? (Re: repetitive FAQ posts)
Message-Id: <7xk9b0wqk4.fsf@beavis.vcpc.univie.ac.at>
Maybe the clp hierarchy should be extended?
clp.www or clp.cgi
might trap most of the posts that turn out to be WWW server
related.
clp.misc is just too vague. It almost invites lots of
rubbish...
tony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:37:39 -0500
From: "Jess Arnold (BFR Contractor)" <jba@fpk.hp.com>
Subject: training recommendation?
Message-Id: <34E34173.3A0940A7@fpk.hp.com>
Can anyone recommend any good training courses in the New York area. I
am interested in learning PERL but I have no real programming background
so I want to take a course to get me started. If not, can anyone
recommend good book(s) to get me started. Thanks.
Jessica
jba@fpk.hp.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:02:09 -0700
From: NerveGas <NerveGas@see_signature.com>
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <34E31D01.1EA5@see_signature.com>
David Rawle wrote:
>
> Well?
I just wonder where he ever finds the time to do anything other than
flame newbies....
--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:22:41 -0600
From: Andrew Johnson <ajohnson@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <34E33DF1.179075F0@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Francois Trousset wrote:
!
! The probleme, is that when you look at the perl
! documentation in the CPAN distribution, you see that it is about
! 30 Megabytes of compressed stuff. If you want perl to be a
! democratic language (in the sense that it is used by the
! majority),
I don't see how ${used by the majority} eq ${democratic}...
(majority of what anyway?)
! you cannot ask people first to read all of these docs,
huh?
Perl is a product that comes with an operating manual...if
a large operating manual is a fearsome sight then you
are thinking about it in the wrong way --- a large manual
should be _encouraging_ (refreshing even) to someone
approaching Perl for the first time for at least two
reasons:
a) it suggests that there's a lot you can do with Perl,
which turns out to be true.
b) it suggests that a little work on your part should turn
up whatever information you seek (which is also true)
Nobody says you should read through all the documentation
from beginning to end before you ever write a line of
code --- but you should certainly become familiar with the
layout of the docs ('perldoc perl' gives an overview of where
to look for particular kinds of information), and the FAQ's
('perldoc perlfaq' gives a similar overview of what kinds
of questions are answered in each of the FAQ sections...
'perldoc perltoc' gives a finer grained breakdown of where
certain info is located)
Programming is about solving problems...those who are not
interested enough in problem-solving to solve their own problem
of how to read documentation will definitely have a problem
becoming a programmer.
It is not that is unreasonable to ask a simple basic question.
It *is* unreasonable to do so without first having looked for the
answer in the docs (and perhaps other resources) which have been
created and made available for just that purpose. Not just
unreasonable, but rude...which brings us, finally, to the question
in the subject header---the answer to which should be readily
apparent.
Perl helps those who help themselves (-w, use strict, perldoc).
clpm, (Tom C included---thankfully) does too!
$0.02
regards
andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:59:18 -0500
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <1d4c7xa.l9d5s84iy79N@roxboro0-008.dyn.interpath.net>
Francois Trousset <trs@eerie.fr> wrote:
> Saying ``It's somewhere in the doc'' from my point of view should never be
> an answer, because it looks like ``we don't care of your problems because
> you have not learned enought of perl'',
But what it actually is, is "we don't care to solve your problem because
you haven't made a legitimate effort to solve it for yourself, and if
you don't care to put any effort into solving the problem why should
we?"
Before posting to a newsgroup a person should read most if not all
message in that group that are on their local server. At the moment
that would stop 90% of the FAQ questions because they are so dammned
frequently that they are always available.
--
John Moreno
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:43:45 -0800
From: Todd Hoff <tmh@possibility.com>
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <34E342E1.31480C4F@possibility.com>
Douglas McNaught wrote:
> I wasn't aware that we on the newsgroup are Tom's customers.
How else do explain such devotion to answering questions?
It's not your average person who would devote such time
and effort.
> Unless you've bought his books, but those of us who have done so (and
> read them) tend not to post FAQs and off-topic CGI questions.
I've bought them and i've posted questions that have turned
out to be in the FAQ. I remember in an SGI question that
turned to be in the FAQ even though i read the damn thing
a billion times. Not everything is a willfull disobedience.
------------------------------------------------------------------
tmh@possibility.com http://www.possibility.com/Tmh
I have no interest in any ship that does not sail fast, for I
plan to go in harm's way. -- J.P. Jones
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 18:14:10 GMT
From: jev@pconline.com (John Erjavec V)
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <6bve5i$tvt$1@bell.pconline.com>
Francois Trousset (trs@eerie.fr) wrote:
[snip]
: sense that it is used by the majority), you cannot ask people first to
: read all of these docs, and I thing that for the majority of the
: question, it should have been answer somewhere here or outside this
[snip]
Francois-
Something most of the posters to this thread, (and others like it) seem to
be forgetting is that you don't have to read _all_ of the documentation to
find the answer to one of your questions. All you have to do is grep for a
keyword in the docs. (The FAQ being a good starting point.) And not being
on a Unix based computer system is not an excuse, since you can still
search through the files on DOS, Win95, WinNT, and Mac systems as well. In
most cases, you will get a better, faster answer to your question than you
would by posting here. This is not supposed to be a place for all the
people that just don't feel like looking for themselves to post questions.
This is supposed to be about discussing things that aren't laid out in the
FAQ. I understand why people get frusterated by the group as it stands
now, but I take a different tactic to deal with it. I generally just don't
respond to questions that are FAQa, etc. I also believe that the methods
of people like Tom C. do definitely make a point -- if you aren't willing
to do some work yourself, why should we bother with you? Just my $0.02.
-JEV
--
John Erjavec V PGP fingerprint:
jev@pconline.com 7593 1B5A AE11 C0FE BA09 EB5E 8DE9 D2E5 BF5B 87AD
http://www.pconline.com/~jev/index.html
"I'll say it again for the logic impaired." --Larry Wall
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:01:49 GMT
From: stephen farrell <sfarrell+usenet@farrell.org>
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <87yazgwste.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu>
David Rawle <info@channel-a.com> writes:
> Well?
If you came here to socialize or get your ego boosted, you came the
wrong place. If you came here to get your questions answered about
perl, then tom christiansen is about the best thing you could ask for.
You're getting service; perhaps not with a smile. But really that's
too much to ask--I have *no idea* how Tom has the time to answer all
the questions he does in this group.
(also, don't piss him off b/c he will leave (again), and this is a bad
thing as far as I, and many others, are concerned).
--sf
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 19:27:49 GMT
From: gsar@engin.umich.edu (Gurusamy Sarathy)
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <6bvifl$506@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>
[ mailed and posted ]
In article <eyhen18vinn.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>,
Richard Caley <spt@cstr.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>He's not. He was implemented by Ken Thompson.
>
Ahh, therein lies the rub. The problem may be that he's still a
command-line tool. People who get to know the interface _always_
find him indispensable.
At the time of his writing, Ken designed him so that he needed
no maintainence. You see, he rewrites himself every few
months. Originally, he preferred to use C, but for the last decade
or so, he has chosen to rewrite himself in the most current Perl.
The problem with that approach is that Perl itself did not work
properly on Windows until recently. So the current Tom version
hasn't had a chance to regression-test himself there. This
usually meant that he did not even produce friendly-looking error
messages when run on Windows. Curiously, the most recent version
even goes ahead and crashes Windows, perhaps because he knows it
is pointless running there if he cannot do anything useful, which
seems logical in a cold sorta way. But it is destructive, and
has a self-limiting effect on the widespread use of Tom.
I think the time has come for The Perl Institute to sponsor a project
to manually restart the rewrite cycle, so Tom can port himself into
portable perl. Nobody has any idea exactly how long this will take.
I advise people to stay calm, and let Tom evolve into something
ever more beautiful. Until then, simply ignore the error messages.
- Sarathy.
gsar@umich.edu
P.S: I have CC-ed the appropriate people for timely action in this
matter.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 19:38:54 GMT
From: Gellyfish@btinternet.com (Jonathan Stowe)
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <6bvj4e$7sv$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>
In article <6bv95t$ira$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>, tchrist@mox.perl.com
says...
>For this, Ken invented grep.
>
This probably is not why Bill G. "invented" the happless find though ;-{
/J\
------------------------------
Date: 12 Feb 1998 14:42:53 -0500
From: Douglas McNaught <doug@tc.net>
Subject: Re: Why is Tom Christiansen so rude?
Message-Id: <m2n2fwboea.fsf@ono.tc.net>
Todd Hoff <tmh@possibility.com> writes:
> Douglas McNaught wrote:
> > I wasn't aware that we on the newsgroup are Tom's customers.
>
> How else do explain such devotion to answering questions?
> It's not your average person who would devote such time
> and effort.
So you're saying we are his customers. I disagree. Perhaps you
should read up on the culture of the free software community, and what
motivates people to contribute to it. You might start with:
http://sagan.earthspace.net/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
> > Unless you've bought his books, but those of us who have done so (and
> > read them) tend not to post FAQs and off-topic CGI questions.
>
> I've bought them and i've posted questions that have turned
> out to be in the FAQ. I remember in an SGI question that
> turned to be in the FAQ even though i read the damn thing
> a billion times. Not everything is a willfull disobedience.
Very true. I've done it myself. If you've noticed, people here tend
to be fairly charitable to those who have at least tried to do their
homework. The FAQs/docs *are* fairly large, and it's not too hard to
miss things (especially if you haven't learned how to use grep and
less yet). Saying "I looked in the docs, but didn't see it--did I
miss something?" will generally lead to kindly treatment.
-Doug
--
sub g{my$i=index$t,$_[0];($i%5,int$i/5)}sub h{substr$t,5*$_[1]+$_[0],1}sub n{(
$_[0]+4)%5}$t='encryptabdfghjklmoqsuvwxz';$c='fxmdwbcmagnyubnyquohyhny';while(
$c=~s/(.)(.)//){($w,$x)=g$1;($y,$z)=g$2;$w==$y&&($p.=h($w,n$x).h($y,n$z))or$x==
$z&&($p.=h(n$w,$x).h(n$y,$z))or($p.=h($y,$x).h($w,$z))}$p=~y/x/ /;print$p,"\n";
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:44:09 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: Year 2000 Compliance: Lawyers, Liars, and Perl
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-1202981344090001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.980211170630.13587A-100000@area51>, David Lee
Lambert <lamber45@EGR.msu.edu> wrote:
+ time strings. (It probably would be a good idea to add a note to the
+ manpage that talks about struct tm mentioning that addition, not
+ tructuation, is the way to produce a four-digit year.)
It isn't necessary, unless you want to be explicit (excerpt from ctime(3)):
Declarations of all the functions and externals, and the tm structure,
are in the time.h header file. The structure declaration is:
struct tm {
[snip]
int tm_year; /* years since 1900 */
That's fairly obvious that tm_year is an _offset_ from 1900, and that
four_digit_year=1900+tm_year. If someone with any grasp of English can't
deduce from that section of the man page that one has to _add_ 1900
to the returned value tm_year, then perhaps they shouldn't be programming?
James
--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/CPAN-local/doc/FAQs/cgi/idiots-guide.html>
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 1877
**************************************
