[8065] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1686 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Jan 20 18:17:05 1998
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 15:00:21 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 20 Jan 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 1686
Today's topics:
Re: are there something like "Perl for Idiot" in Bookst <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Building binary for Perl 5.004 <barry@educ.lsuc.on.ca>
Re: Can unix Perl Modules be used under Win32 <kjt111@hotmail.com>
Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption (I R A Aggie)
Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption <rootbeer@teleport.com>
converting string to function reference <khesin@staff.juno.com>
Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: Differences between Unix Perl and Win32 Perl? (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: FAQ too big (Was: Re: PERL forking) <cbpkxh@arcochem.com>
Re: grabbing email adresses from webpages (Martien Verbruggen)
Hashes w/ case-insensitive keys <dhale@web.compuserve.com>
Re: I need a man to lick me in to a frenzy!!! (brian d foy)
Re: Leaner and Meaner: Is undump an answer? <doug1@weboneinc.com>
Re: Perl problem with IE3 <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: Perl Win32: iterating a folder, is it file or folde (Martien Verbruggen)
Searching a database <kjt111@hotmail.com>
Re: Simple example of Select needed please (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: source into binary code <jason@primal.ucdavis.edu>
Re: source into binary code <rjc@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
source to binary pt. II (was Re: Simple example of Sele <dboorstein@ixl.com>
Re: source to binary pt. II (was Re: Simple example of (brian d foy)
Strange construct /(Word|other)(?=<>)/ (Tom Burton-West)
triming whitespace draggs@hawkeye.idx.com
Re: Why shift ? (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: Why warn? (WAS: Re: Critique My Code! (Please)) (I R A Aggie)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 21:58:36 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: are there something like "Perl for Idiot" in Bookstore?
Message-Id: <6a36mc$3v6$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
"Chat U" <uchat@rocketmail.com> writes:
:I just jumped from win95 to Unix a couple weeks ago.
:I'm do well with pascal and OK with C....but right now, perl is my choice
::-)
:
:Any comments about Perl books for beginer?
Recommendations follow:
BEGINNING:
Learning Perl
Learning Perl on Win32 Systems
Cross-platform Perl
Perl: The Programmer's Companion [NB: for compsci majors]
INTERMEDIATE:
Programming Perl
Perl5 Interactive
Effective Perl Programming
Advanced Perl Programming
Truly advanced? Dunno. Maybe APP.
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen tchrist@jhereg.perl.com
Documentation is the castor oil of programming. Managers know it must
be good because the programmers hate it so much.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:30:34 +0500
From: Barry Ayow <barry@educ.lsuc.on.ca>
Subject: Building binary for Perl 5.004
Message-Id: <34C498EA.24F29FB8@educ.lsuc.on.ca>
Hi,
Hopefully someone can give me some guidance. I have managed to compile the Perl
binary for the stated version on a Sparcstation running Solaris 2.5.1 and the
usual GNU utilities. When I run the "make test" all are successful except one
lib/odbm.t. I have run the test by itself and it does a coredump when it
attempts to do the third part of the test. Can someone tell what the purpose of
this portion is? Is it important? Since I am not a Perl programmer or a
programmer for that matter, can someone shed some light for me on the issue of
determining variable values? In this test program, there are several values
which I can't understand where their content is derived from (eg. $key,$value -
are these dynamic? and %h ). I tend to think of "%" as modulos so I'm confused
with its significance in this script. Any feedback or clues as to where I might
find the answers would be greatly appriciated. Thanks in advance.
barry
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 16:32:59 +600
From: "Kevin Tonkin" <kjt111@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Can unix Perl Modules be used under Win32
Message-Id: <01bd25f3$bb5a9b80$6b9cc4ce@hsegal.dnvr.uswest.net>
To the best of my knowledge, it's not a problem. You may have to change
your "/"s to "\\"s though. I don't seem to have had to do this with my
scripts but I've read somewhere that you have to.
Kevin
Bernard Arumainathan <dilana@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in article
<69uunt$skt@milo.vcn.bc.ca>...
> Is is possible to use perl modules from Perl distributions for Unix under
> Win32.
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:14:53 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption
Message-Id: <6a37kt$qst$6@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <34C4C01D.6B4E@summitfs.demon.co.uk>,
Mike Haberfield <mikeh@summitfs.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Sorry if this is the wrong newsgroup but I couldn't find an HTML /
> CGI-BIN script group....
Just for future reference:
comp.infosystems.www.*
One of those is about cgi. Some are about HTML.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen | My friend has a baby. I'm writing down
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | all the noises the baby makes so later
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | I can ask him what he meant - Steven
NSW, Australia | Wright
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:25:40 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-2001981725410001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <34C4F703.59B0@aol.com>, malunjkars@aol.com wrote:
+ Mike Haberfield wrote:
+ > Is there any way to either encrypt the parameters before they're sent to
+ > my cgi-bin script, or prevent the parameters from being displayed as
+ > part of the URL in the Location field when the result screen is
+ > displayed.
+ Have you tried using method="post" in your form tag of the HTML form
+ with userid/password fields ? this usually doesn't show fields in the
+ url.
In Netscape Communicator:
View->Page Source
shows the document as it exists in your cache. I can still access those
parameters in plain-text. Security thru obscurity is no security.
James - it would be even easier to retrieve that information using a perl
script and the LWP module...
--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/perl/faq/idiots-guide.html>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:43:36 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Mike Haberfield <mikeh@summitfs.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CGI-BIN script - parameter encryption
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980120143625.6319h-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Mike Haberfield wrote:
> Sorry if this is the wrong newsgroup but I couldn't find an HTML /
> CGI-BIN script group....
This page is entitled "WWW FAQ: What newsgroups discuss the Web?" It may
help you to find suitable web-related newsgroups in the future.
http://sunsite.unc.edu/boutell/faq/ngroups.htm
One of the newsgroups about browsers may be able to help you. Good luck!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:49:36 -0500
From: "Alex Khesin" <khesin@staff.juno.com>
Subject: converting string to function reference
Message-Id: <6a3691$f8g$1@news1.deshaw.com>
I cannot figure out the syntax to do the following:
I have a string variable with function name in it, and I need to create a
variable containing a reference to this function, i.e.
sub foo {}
$a = "foo";
... some magic to make $aref refer to whatever $a names (&foo in this
example)
&$aref;
(To give some context, I am trying to build a function dispatch table which
I want to be able to initialize from a text file)
Please help!
Alex
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:23:55 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Russ Allbery <rra@stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980120141332.6319d-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On 20 Jan 1998, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I'm trying to detect the existence of a *predeclaration* for a sub, not
> the existence of a sub definition (which is what defined &subname checks
> for).
I'm not trying to be rude or anything here, but whatever reason could you
have for needing to know this? It sounds as if you're poking into the
internals of Perl, and those internals may well change in a future version
of Perl, as I'm sure you know. You must have a good reason for wanting
this.
But if you want safely to be sure that a particular sub is predeclared,
you could do this:
BEGIN { eval 'sub foo;' unless defined prototype 'foo' }
Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:23:11 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Differences between Unix Perl and Win32 Perl?
Message-Id: <6a384f$qst$7@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <34c4e0c2.0@news.xtml.co.uk>,
fuck@off.com writes:
> Previously I have been writting all my Perl scripts on a Unix box and the
> company I work for has just transfered over to Win NT (Wise move, Not!!) and
Silly move. They'll find out :)
> all my scripts now either cease to work or enjoy difficulty in working.
>
> Can anyone point me to a web page/book that has a list of the small
> differences between the two versions of Perl.
A good place to start would be the perl for win32 FAQ at
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/doc/FAQs/nt/Perl_for_Win32_FAQ.html
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | I'm desperately trying to figure out
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | why kamikaze pilots wore helmets - Dave
NSW, Australia | Edison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:14:21 GMT
From: "Kevin Hawley" <cbpkxh@arcochem.com>
Subject: Re: FAQ too big (Was: Re: PERL forking)
Message-Id: <01bd25e8$5f0a68c0$a041f9a5@dyyfc1.aca.arcochem.com>
I don't have 40 years to read the FAQ. I use lots of languages
not just perl, if I read all the FAQ's I would be one smart dude,
but out of a job! That is why I appreciate people like you that take
the time to answer questions. By the way I do nibble at the FAQ
when I get some spare time (sometimes I even read it :^).
-Kevin Hawley
Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.980120112716.6319F-100000@user2.teleport.com>...
> On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, ARCO Chemical Company wrote:
>
> > P.S. The Perl FAQ is TOO big!!
>
> If everybody would only read it before posting, none of the questions
> would be frequently asked any longer, and then we could virtually
> eliminate the FAQ, couldn't we? Oh, wait...
>
> --
> Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
> rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
> Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
> Ask me about Perl trainings!
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:34:38 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: grabbing email adresses from webpages
Message-Id: <6a38pu$qst$10@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <34C51730.ABBB7B9B@rice.edu>,
Pascal Hos <paashaas@rice.edu> writes:
> spider search and a webpage containing url's is displayed. How could one
> obtain all the email addresses without actually opening the url's
> themselves
Look for a mailto: link. Ask your psychic.
I bet you could have thought of that yourself.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | In a world without fences, who needs
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | Gates?
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:36:53 -0500
From: "Donnie Hale" <dhale@web.compuserve.com>
Subject: Hashes w/ case-insensitive keys
Message-Id: <uqHuvPfJ9GA.309@nih2naac.prod2.compuserve.com>
Is there any easy way to work w/ hashes using case-insensitive keys. More
specifically, I call a function that fills in a hash. I expect certain keys
to be there. However, if the case doesn't match exactly, the key is, in
essence, not found.
Or do I have to brute force it one way or another?
Many thanks,
Donnie Hale
dhale@web.compuserve.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:56:25 -0500
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: I need a man to lick me in to a frenzy!!!
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R2001981756250001@news.panix.com>
Keywords: from just another new york perl hacker
In article <eyhafcqde6o.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>, Richard Caley <rjc@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk> posted:
>In article <6a2iim$174$1@stok.co.uk>, Mike Stok (ms) writes:
>
>ms> Might that be clearer as
>
>ms> &lick_me until $frenzy;
>
>I think in the interests of maintainability it would be better to
>
> use POD::Canine;
>
> man_to_golden_retriever();
just be careful about what's in @EXPORT().
--
brian d foy <comdog@computerdog.com>
CGI Meta FAQ <URL:http://computerdog.com/CGI_MetaFAQ.html>
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN) <URL:http://www.perl.com>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:53:26 -0500
From: Douglas Clifton <doug1@weboneinc.com>
Subject: Re: Leaner and Meaner: Is undump an answer?
Message-Id: <34C51CD6.47719762@weboneinc.com>
brian d foy wrote:
> In article <885321448.385286147@dejanews.com>, Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@sympatico.ca> posted:
>
> >My problem is having an exceptionally busy webpage which is
> >generated by a perl-script; it's strangling the (Solaris) server.
> >
> >Is undump of a Perl core file the answer?
>
> mod_perl is the answer.
Or FastCGI.
--
Douglas Clifton
Unix/C/Perl/CGI/HTML Programmer
===================
Web One Inc.
Website Development
Phone: 888-699-WEB1
Phone: 616-552-9999
Fax: 616-552-9920
sales@weboneinc.com
www.weboneinc.com
===================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:58:06 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Vince <vince@vrm.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Perl problem with IE3
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980120135712.6319a-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On 20 Jan 1998, Vince wrote:
> This script works fine in NS3, NS4 and IE4, but in IE3 it does not
> finish creating the page, always at the same point it stops. Is there a
> problem with IE3?
If there is, it's not Perl's fault! :-) The people in a newsgroup about
browsers should be able to give you a better and more complete answer than
we can here. Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:32:36 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Perl Win32: iterating a folder, is it file or folder?
Message-Id: <6a38m4$qst$9@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <885330729.864092168@dejanews.com>,
randy.suinn@fci.com writes:
> When iterating the contents of a folder, what is the method to determine
> if it's a file or folder?
directory
God, MS made a mistake adopting that terminology.
> perldoc -f -X
will give you the answer
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au |
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 16:30:39 +600
From: "Kevin Tonkin" <kjt111@hotmail.com>
Subject: Searching a database
Message-Id: <01bd25f3$67ce5ce0$6b9cc4ce@hsegal.dnvr.uswest.net>
Hi! I'm pretty new to perl and have been thrown in the deep end here!
I'm trying to write a perl script that will ultimately become a cgi. The
aim here is to search a database containing a bunch of URLs to see whether
a visitor to my web page from a particular site is in the database. I
guess what I'm going to be comparing is the environment variable
HTTP_REFERER and checking to see if it's listed in the database.
Does anyone have ANY idea how I would accomplish this?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated
Kevin
kjt111@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:29:44 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Simple example of Select needed please
Message-Id: <6a38go$qst$8@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <34c4c69b.23512178@news.u-net.com>,
paul@f1world.com (Paul Ryder) writes:
> Hi,
>
> Could someone just outline a simple example of how select works.
Is there anything more you need added to the examples that are in the
documentation for select?
perldoc -f select
> A Socket Connection
> Keyboard STDIN
>
> How can i use select to listen for both? no need to go into the
> listen/socket code, i just need to see how select works ..
Hmm, I don't think select will do that for you. select refers to
output, not input. you can also use select with four arguments to call
the system call select().. Maybe that is helpful. Again: examples in
the documentation.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | If it isn't broken, it doesn't have
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | enough features yet.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:13:31 -0800
From: Jason Christian <jason@primal.ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980120125356.31207S-100000@primal.ucdavis.edu>
On 20 Jan 1998, John Stanley wrote:
> And would they pay him if he gave them the code for free, and they
> decided to modify it themselves? No, they wouldn't. He loses money. He
> is wonderfully altruistic, but hungry. And he won't get paid until he
> comes up with another application.
Out here in the real world, most of us cannot modify it ourselves,
either because we lack the time or the skill. So we employ others to do
it for us. The low cost improver of that software is probably the
original author himself. Or they will pay someone to do it for them.
Either way, the code is free, the improvement isn't.
> >> Nor does the other need apply to all transactions. That is all I would
> >> like people to admit.
> >
> >My opinion is that there is a lot more opportunity to make a living as a
> >professional provider of software services than as a manufacturer of
> >geegaws, and that most of the people who think they will strike it rich
> >by writing some product for the mass market are deluding themselves.
> >But I Could Be Wrong.
>
> And you could be irrelevant. Whether or not they will succeed or make a
> fortune is not the issue. That they not be prevented from trying is.
> "You can't do that because you might fail" is a wonderful way to create
> failure.
You are building more straw men, I think. At least as far as I am
concerned, I have no intention of preventing you from obfuscating your
code, or someone else from buying it. I might even buy it...but there
is a cost, which is reflected in my demand function for the product, to
your obfuscation. I will *certainly* pay much less per hour of your
time if you obfuscate your code (in whatever fashion). If you can make
up for that in volume, go ahead. Note that those quotation marks above
denote a piece of fiction of your own writing.
On another of those tangents...your MRI software. I think it possibly
unfortunate, and likely dangerous, for the medical profession to move
away from the standards that have served it so well for so long: peer
review. Medical procedures have historically required full disclusure
and review by the profession. Now "you" (or whoever) can take some
procedures out of that system...but it makes *me* nervous. Patents have
historically protected both pharmaceuticals and scientific
instrumentation; they trade the grant of a property right against full
disclosure. There are problems with patenting...but at least the
*knowledge* is out there. No doubt patenting doesn't work in software
(and I am aware of and agnostic regarding debates over software
patents)...but I stillam *really concerned* about the inability to
review exactly how a machine works.
> >No sir. "freedom" relates to our ability to have the *code*, as opposed
> >to the functionality. It does not relate to the necessity of paying for
> >services. The software is free; the programmer's time certainly is not.
>
> And as I have pointed out elsewhere, having code is not always a good
> thing. Letting the doctors and nurses "fix" the MRI software isn't the
> way to run a hospital. Trying to run a small software company and
> having everyone and their brother 1) tell you how to write your code
> better by changing line 35 of the routine xxx.foo, even though your
> code does what it says it does, and 2) modifying your code and then
> complaining when it doesn't work anymore, is a terrible way to run a
> small software company.
No doubt. But hey, if you're running the company you can ignore
everybody's brother's suggestions. As to Dr. Nursely fixing the
software, this is another straw man. The hospitals, and medical profession
in general, have long experience with coordinating review and
improvement by a large and relatively open system of experts.
> >> unethical and unprofessional. There are lots of professionals who work
> >> in manufacturing just so you can buy those widgets, and they do it quite
> >> ethically.
> >
> >You in the straw business, or what?
>
> I reply to what you write. If that is "straw business", then I guess
> so.
No, you read what I write, then you make up arguments against things
which I didn't write. You are not, of course, alone in this habit; no
doubt we all do it, in part because none of us reads or writes as well
as (a) we could and (b) we think we do.
> >One of the things that characterizes
> >the professions is that they develop well-defined bodies of ethics,
> >...
> >Such codes are not necessary in the widget industries.
>
> When I last read the code of ethics for the IEEE, it did not excuse
> electrical engineers who design the electrical parts of widgets from
> the code. I do not recall the code of ethics for the ACM or ACS
> excusing WidgetInc employees from those codes. In fact, when I see
> discussions of the codes of ethics for those groups, it always seems to
> include as a major topic ethics in a corporate climate. E.g., "you are
> a EE who has been asked to design X with certain known limitations..."
>
> Such codes not necessary in the widget industries? I would counter that
> such codes exist BECAUSE of industry.
Fine. I stand corrected. The rules for behavior within a corporate
environment, and in the production of a standardized product, are likely
to be different in many cases from those in an environment of
professional-service agreements. That is all I am saying.
> >The lack of a formal ethical code in no way implies that subscribers to
> >the other ethos are unethical.
>
> No, but your statement that "free software" is a statement of
> professionality and ethics implies that "non free software" is
> otherwise.
No, it is a statement about the ethical rules for an environment
characterized by custom software creation between independent buyers and
sellers. *I* am approaching the question from the buyers side, and
explaining how *I* think a free-software, in the sense of readable and
editable source code, benefits both buyers and sellers. It is such
circumstances...where a mutual benefit may be gained from a restriction
on the conduct of the participants in a market...that typically lead to
the creation of codes of ethics.
> >> Show me where I said it cannot.
> >
> >I believe I have described what most of us understand by "free
> >software."
>
> In other words, you cannot.
>
> >If you agree that that is a functional business model, and
> >can understand why at least this *user* shies away from your obfuscated
> >code, then I have no argument with you.
>
> I have never said that "free software" was an invalid business model,
> only that you cannot make a living giving software away for free. I
> have never said that nobody will shy away from obfuscated code, only
> that some may not consider that a deal-breaker and may have more
> important concerns. That you are arguing with me would imply that you
> have an argument with what I said and not with what I did not say.
>
> >I think it *ought* to be considered unethical for a professional in the
> >software services industry to lock up code.
>
> Well, I think otherwise. I would miss the commercial software that is
> available only because the source is not given out.
>
> >I do not believe that someone
> >with training and talent in program ought to be restricted to being a
> >Professional Software Engineer.
>
> This is from left field. Who said this?
Why don't you deal with the whole paragraph? I am trying, with no
evident success, to clarify my position, which is that
training-expertise-and-talen in computer programming can be, and ought
to be, useable either as an employee, within a corporate environment,
perhaps even producing shrink-wrapped geegaws (you all have spoiled
"widget" as the economist's standard term for an anonymous product),
using whatever obfuscation schemes the corporation requires, or as an
indepentent PSE, selling programming services to clients much like an
attorney sells legal services to clients.
>
> >Physicians and attorneys are often
> >employed by businesses, or are entrepreneurs in their own businesses; so
> >long as they do not claim to be "practicing medicine" or "practicing
> >law," such activities are not unethical.
>
> Back the horses up, Ramone.
>
> Let me get this straight. You are saying that you think it is not
> unethical for a doctor to run his own business, as long as he does not
> claim he is practicing medicine? You are saying the same for lawyers?
> By that claim, you imply that it IS unethical for a doctor to run his
> own business (or work for someone else) and claim he is practicing
> medicine. Ditto for lawyers.
The corporate form that a medical or legal practice takes is not my
concern. Kaiser is a medical practice, so was the single-physician
practice that I visited as a child. Both are in the business of
providing medical services to patients, and are bound by the physicians
code of ethics. Sometimes physicians go into the business
selling...geegaws. Dr. Spademan, an orthopedist, invented and sold a
fine ski binding. My dentist had a patent on a high-speed drill. Many
anaesthesiologists have gone into the business of selling operating-room
apparatus for the delivery and removal of various gases and fluids.
Non-physicians have been involved in ventures in all of these areas. As
such they are subject no doubt to certain ethical codes to which all
humans are subject, about which I have no comment, as I am not that kind
of philosopher, and to narrower codes of ethics and behavior that
govern, whether explicitly or implicitly, their industries. I know
little about precisely what those codes contain...just that in most
human endeavors they exist, and (what is important here) that they vary
from the codes that govern behavior in other realms.
Free Software, in the sense of readible and editable source code, has
the status of a proposed requirement for the code governing independent
PSE's. As a client of that profession, I support the requirement. As
to whether it is a practical requirement for other endeavors, such as
the development of shrink-wrapped geegaws, I neither know nor
particularly care (although as an economist with professional interests
in technological change I could easily be persuaded to take an
interest).
> It is not unethical for a doctor to form a business to practice medicine
> and announce that he is practicing medicine. Who he works for has no
> bearing on the matter. As long as he is licensed in the state he is
> working in, he can claim that he is practicing medicine whether he works
> for WidgetCo as a staff doctor or for himself in his own office.
>
> Ditto for lawyers.
That is true. If, on the other hand, he takes a job as a medical
examiner for Adverse Selection Insurance, Inc., it *would* be unethical
for him, after he has performed my medical exam for life insurance, to
prescribe me some medicine. Dr. Spademan maintained his medical
practice after inventing his ski binding (good thing, too: the binding
is no longer made); that is fine. What about a physician who formed a
company for the manufacture of therapeutic geegaws? There things are
tricky. If there is no substitute on the market, then it is hard to
argue prescribing the product. If not...well, the good physician has
placed himself in a conflict of interest, which is the sort of thing
ethics codes are supposed to prevent.
Now, in spite of my ability to write a one-liner to strip the ididosiotic
\cM from the end of certain files, I am basically a computer ignoramus.
I hire a professional to help me through the intricacies of bits and
bytes. If you are taking my dollars to fund the development of a
geegaw...you have placed yourself in a conflict of interest. I bought
your time and your expertise, which you ought, under any reasonable code
of professional ethics, to put to the best interests of your client,
while you are serving him. Locking up the code, so that after you flip
out to follow Rush Limbaugh on tour in a beat-up BMW van I cannot fix
the bugs that appear, does not, in my book, count as looking after the
best interests of the client. If you want to be paid more for being
a PSE...fine. I pay well for a good attorney, too. But the ethics of
the geegaw manufacturer, while undoubtedly laudable, have little to do
with "client-server protocols," if I may be forgiven for jargon thievery
(or, if you prefer, code re-use).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Christian University of California, Davis
jason@primal.ucdavis.edu Agricultural and Resource Economics
Office:(530)752-1357 FAX:(530)752-5614 Davis, CA 95616
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:16:46 +0000
From: Richard Caley <rjc@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <eyh90sadc4x.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
In article <6a2scg$j36$1@news.orst.edu>, John Stanley (js) writes:
js> I would still point to thousands of corporate IS departments who never
js> get the source to most of the desktop products, and would question that
js> their corporate reliance on those products would allow them to be called
js> "toys".
_They_ might be able to get support for them. Mind you, I wouldn't bet
the company on that if I was them.
js> I would also question a dichotomy based on security/toy.
There was no such dichotomy. I expliocitly said it was a sliding
scale and security related things were simply an example of the
important-to-know-it's-sane end of the scale.
I do think there is an observable corrolation between availability of
source and stability of the system.
--
rjc@cstr.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:00:34 -0500
From: Dan Boorstein <dboorstein@ixl.com>
Subject: source to binary pt. II (was Re: Simple example of Select needed please)
Message-Id: <34C51E82.C4D53499@ixl.com>
Dave Barnett wrote:
> "Security through obscurity is no security at all."
> -comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup posting
not this again! and now it's no longer just a "dangerous miscarriage
of the truth", but devolved into being no security. all that ranting
and raving and the end result is a misquoted, baseless assertion. oh
well!
dan boorstein
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:55:33 -0500
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: source to binary pt. II (was Re: Simple example of Select needed please)
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R2001981755330001@news.panix.com>
Keywords: from just another new york perl hacker
In article <34C51E82.C4D53499@ixl.com>, Dan Boorstein <dboorstein@ixl.com> posted:
>Dave Barnett wrote:
>> "Security through obscurity is no security at all."
>> -comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup posting
>
>not this again! and now it's no longer just a "dangerous miscarriage
>of the truth", but devolved into being no security. all that ranting
>and raving and the end result is a misquoted, baseless assertion.
the group did exist before your recent thread, as did this quote.
Dave's had it in his .sig since at least November of last year.
nothing devolved - it's always been that way.
calm down.
--
brian d foy <comdog@computerdog.com>
another entry in the killfile i suppose
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:02:38 GMT
From: tbw@netcom.com (Tom Burton-West)
Subject: Strange construct /(Word|other)(?=<>)/
Message-Id: <tbwEn3rwE.n3n@netcom.com>
I am trying to understand the following line of perl code:
$stuff=~/(word|otherword)(?=<>)/ || $stuff =~s/(word/otherword)/text/;
My guess is that if the first part of the expression is true then the
word "text" gets substituted for the word "word" or the word
"otherword" in the string $stuff.
What I don't understand is the expression (?=<>) inside the regular
expression in the first part. Can anyone please explain? I couln't
find a reference to the construct in the Camel book.
Tom Burton-West
tbw@netcom.com
--
tbw@netcom.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:48:43 GMT
From: draggs@hawkeye.idx.com
Subject: triming whitespace
Message-Id: <34c51a23.19941737@news.idx.com>
Hello again. I'm a newbie and terible with regular expresions. I was
wondering if there's a quick and easy way to get rid of extra spaces
at the end of a variable?
eg. print ">$line<"; would give me
>testing <
I'd like to trim $line so that the output is just:
>testing<
Thanks!
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 22:13:45 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Why shift ?
Message-Id: <6a37ip$qst$5@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <34C4B3A9.41C6@bvr.co.il>,
Eyal <eyalb@bvr.co.il> writes:
> sub get_rec {
> my $fh = shift;
> return scalar <$fh>;
> }
>
> why use shift ?
You mean:
- Why use shift, instead of $_[0], and remembering how many elements
of @_ are already processed?
Because it is easier to type, and easier to read. I guess it's a
matter of taste. If there are lots of arguments, that always come
back in the same order, I tend to use things like:
my ($a, $b, $c) = @_;
I do stay away from things like $_[0], or $_[1], because they're
ugly, and potentially confusing.
- What does shift do?
It removes the first element from an array and returns it. If no
array is given as argument, it removes the first element of @_ and
returns it, unless you're in the main program, where it will shift
off the first element of @ARGV.
Of course, you had already read the documentation on shift
(perldoc -f shift), so you knew this.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | The gene pool could use a little
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | chlorine.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:36:38 -0500
From: fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie)
Subject: Re: Why warn? (WAS: Re: Critique My Code! (Please))
Message-Id: <fl_aggie-2001981736380001@aggie.coaps.fsu.edu>
In article <885315855.97255428@dejanews.com>, dg50@chrysler.com wrote:
+ From where I sit,
+
+ "warn "foo\n";
+
+ is functionally equivelent to:
+
+ "print STDERR "foo\n";
+
+ So why use the former over the latter?
Because it is more intuitively obvious what's going on? because it involves
less typing? because There Is More Than One Way To Do Things?
I kind of favor #2 myself...
James
--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
The Bill of Rights is paid in Responsibilities - Jean McGuire
To cure your perl CGI problems, please look at:
<url:http://www.perl.com/perl/faq/idiots-guide.html>
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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