[8053] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1678 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Jan 20 01:17:40 1998
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 22:00:20 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 19 Jan 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 1678
Today's topics:
Re: add a subroutine - need help please <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: beginner question <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: converting file names down a directory tree <monty@nospam.net>
Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration <joseph@5sigma.com>
Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration <joseph@5sigma.com>
Re: Help Please (Martien Verbruggen)
Re: how do I emulate csh's "set verbose" in Perl <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: living and free software (was: Re: source into bina (John Stanley)
Re: Local ISP POST is good, AOL POST returns error (Mike Heins)
Re: Odd syntax problem <rjk@coos.dartmouth.edu>
Re: Odd syntax problem (Martien Verbruggen)
ora_errstr not initialized properly using oraperl <hkalsi@cisco.com>
Re: Perl5 NT FTP Library (Clay Irving)
Re: qc(foo,bar,bletch) [Re: perl module question] <*@qz.to>
Re: qc(foo,bar,bletch) [Re: perl module question] <joseph@5sigma.com>
Re: Redirect stdout on NT! Need some ideas <reprogle@iquest.net>
Re: Sorting an Associative Array <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: source into binary code (John Stanley)
Re: source into binary code (John Stanley)
Re: source into binary code <stuartc@ind.tansu.com.au>
Re: source into binary code <rjc@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:34:24 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: kristi <perlhell@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: add a subroutine - need help please
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980119192954.24551K-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, kristi wrote:
> Currently, my perl program grabs the input from an html form and
> generates an email message to the recipient in a nice laid out manner.
> Now, I would like to add a sub that grabs the same information, and
> writes (or append) it to a tab (or comma) delimited text(ASCII) file.
>
> I'm not too sure how to make that happen. Any help or starting points
> would be greatly appreciated...
The perlsub manpage has info on writing subroutines. And information on
opening files and writing data to them is in perlfunc, among other places.
Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:24:51 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Eyal <eyalb@bvr.co.il>
Subject: Re: beginner question
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980119192256.24551I-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Eyal wrote:
> Subject: beginner question
Please check out this helpful information on choosing good subject
lines. It will be a big help to you in making it more likely that your
requests will be answered.
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/Dean_Roehrich/subjects.post
> I need to write a subroutine in perl which gets as a parameter a method
> name of a C++ file (e.g CoordControl::updateView) and simply deletes it
> from the C file including the braces and whats in it.
It sounds as if you want your subroutine to parse the C++ code and
re-write the file. The excellent "Hip Owls" book (Mastering Regular
Expressions, by Jeffrey Friedl) has some good tips on how to make such
parsing code. If you get stuck, let us know. Good luck!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:03:45 -0600
From: "Monty Scroggins" <monty@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: converting file names down a directory tree
Message-Id: <6a1bi7$ke9$1@plucky.netgazer.net>
You could download the Recurse.pm module from CPAN.
It works great and allows you to execute a subroutine on every
file in a recurseive search.
Hope this helps
Monty
Tad McClellan wrote in message ...
>notsew@wwa.com wrote:
>: might someone suggest a quick way to change all file names (say,
> ^^^^^^^^^
>: lowercase them) down a directory tree?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:56:59 -0700
From: "Joseph N. Hall" <joseph@5sigma.com>
Subject: Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration
Message-Id: <34C41209.EFA7B79A@5sigma.com>
Golly, that does work! You learn something new every day!
So why doesn't *{$subname}{BAR} work?
-joseph
http://www.effectiveperl.com
> > Russ> What I'm looking for is an implementation of
> > Russ> sub_exists().
> >
> > defined &$subname
> >
> > should be what you want, I think.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:01:41 -0700
From: "Joseph N. Hall" <joseph@5sigma.com>
Subject: Re: Detecting the presence of a sub declaration
Message-Id: <34C41323.A80E8799@5sigma.com>
Ah! Now I get it:
&{*{"foo"}{CODE}} is equivalent to &{"foo"}
Makes sense once you get there.
-joseph
Joseph N. Hall wrote:
>
> Golly, that does work! You learn something new every day!
>
> So why doesn't *{$subname}{BAR} work?
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 05:06:00 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Help Please
Message-Id: <6a1bbo$l5t$1@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
[Subject: Re: Help Please]
Please read the following on how to choose a good subject line:
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/Dean_Roehrich/subjects.post
In article <6a12sd$fv$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
c-hammer@students.uiuc.edu (corey andersen hammer) writes:
> I'm writing a script using cgi-lib.pl. However, PERL won't let me use the -d
Use CGI.pm. Not cgi-lib.pl. cgi-lib.pl is as dead as perl4.
> switch to degub my script. It keeps giving me "Can't locate perl5db.pl in
> @INC." I get a similar message when I use -w to check the warnings, but this
Looks like your perl isn't installed correctly. reinstall it.
> one is about cgi-lib.pl.
Hardly. it is about the absence of perl5db.pl.
> backslashes, but that didn't work either. I've been using CGI Primer Plus
> by Mohammed Kabir to learn what I need for my script, but it doesn't cover
Does that tell you to use cgi-lib.pl? Time to get a newer book.
> Please respond to:
> Corey Hammer
> chammer@shrike.depaul.edu
> The University of Illinios account is my old undergraduate account.
> Do not respond there.
If you want us to respond there, set your Reply-To field or From field
appropriately. If you don't want us to respond to the account you post
from, make sure your news reader is set up correctly.
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | I'm desperately trying to figure out
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | why kamikaze pilots wore helmets - Dave
NSW, Australia | Edison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:19:31 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: John Crawshaw <john.crawshaw@london.pgs.com>
Subject: Re: how do I emulate csh's "set verbose" in Perl
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980119191524.24551H-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, John Crawshaw wrote:
> How do I emulate csh'c set verbose syntax in Perl ? I cant seem to find
> a flag that will do it for me. set verbose in csh I find really usefull
> for debugging.
I don't know what that feature is, but if you're trying to debug
something, have you seen the perldebug manpage?
> Also is there a way I can find out what % of time my program spends in
> each subroutine to find possible slow-bits in my code, I know this can
> be done in a C debugger but havent come across it in Perl.
That would be the profiler. The perldebug manpage talks about that as
well. Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 04:35:09 GMT
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: living and free software (was: Re: source into binary code)
Message-Id: <6a19ht$cii$1@news.orst.edu>
In article <6a0o44$20k$9@info.uah.edu>, Greg Bacon <gbacon@adtran.com> wrote:
>I don't have much use for useless software. :-)
Neither do I. But I don't consider commercial software to be useless
just because I had to pay for it.
>No one is claiming to make a living by giving away software. Why do you
>insist on returning to a settled point?
Because it hasn't been settled. You think you settled it by proving the
claim wasn't made, but you quoted the claim in the same article where
you tried proving it didn't happen.
>MAKING A LIVING AND GIVING AWAY SOFTWARE ARE INDEPENDENT EVENTS--
Not when they are connected in the same sentence with the word "by".
That's a causal relationship. The events "make meatloaf" and "running
over cats" are usually independent, until you say "I make meatloaf by
running over cats and cooking them." Yes, the word "by" is important.
>: >Source hoarders be damned.
>:
>: My my, yes, that attitude I was just talking about.
>
>It is natural and normal to harbor contempt for those who cause trouble
>and are generally harmful to society.
Please support that statement with proof or retract it. It is a long
way from "I won't give you my code for free" to causing trouble for
society.
>You're referring to selling an obfuscated version of your work. This is
>still hoarding.
The work is available to anyone who wants to use it. You cannot see how
it was done, just as I cannot walk into HP and expect to see how they
fab the chips for the calculator I just bought, nor can I learn how by
grinding the top off the chips in the one I bought. Nor can I take the
automotive diagnostic computer apart at the local garage just because I
had a tuneup done there, to see how it is done.
>No one can benefit from what you've learned.
Don't be silly. Anyone can benefit from what I've learned, they just
have to pay for it. The benefit is the operation of the program,
not the ability to see the code itself. Did you notice that there is a
thing called "tuition" at most schools? Do you resent all those
professors who expect to be paid to teach you the things they have
learned?
Did you also notice that most of the world would not benefit one tiny
bit by seeing the code, but many may benefit from its use? E.g., the
code that runs the MRI systems sold by GE. I would get no benefit from
seeing the code used by these "greedy code hoarders", but damn wouldn't
the results of the code be helpful if I needed an MRI? Here is just one
example of why "greedy code hoarding" can be good. Would you want your
doctor programming the MRI machine? Would you even expect him to know
about quadrature phases and pulse programming so he could detect any
errors in the program? Would you like to be IN the MRI when his program
runs the first time? (No, no, doctor, the paramter to that call is in
units of seconds, not microseconds. 3000 is MUCH too long a time to have
the full power of the RF unit applied.)
>You're not contributing to human knowledge.
What a wonderfully subjective measure of the value of existance. By this
measure, a good 90% of the population of the Earth should be taken out
and shot. No, let's be lenient. 50%.
>Greed is motivating you to the
>point of eliminating any feelings of altruism you might have. I
And now we are at the extreme end of the pendulum swing, where the
desire to feed one's family by doing something one is good at is
equated to "greed" and anyone who wants to do this lacks any feelings
of altruism. Yes, all must learn to play the piano. A Utopia in the
making.
>The Internet wasn't pioneered by greedy source hoarders,
No, it was pioneered by people who were being paid to develop code. It
cost them nothing to give the code to others who were doing the same
thing because they weren't being paid by how much they wrote or based
on how many copies they sold. In fact, they were being paid by the
government (ARPA, remember?).
>No Utopia can last when there's greed.
No Utopia exists when people are hungry. Somehow, equating the Internet
to Utopia lessens the value of Utopia, or inappropriately agrandizes
the Internet.
>I'm just painting a picture of how nice
>things would be for everyone if they joined the free software movement.
It would be nicer for those who want the software for free, no doubt
about that. It wouldn't be as nice a place for people who currently make
their livings writing code and selling it, but they are scum anyway so
who cares, right?
Had an MRI recently? Used a modem? Those greedy software hoarders at
Hayes...
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 05:11:39 GMT
From: mheins@prairienet.org (Mike Heins)
Subject: Re: Local ISP POST is good, AOL POST returns error
Message-Id: <6a1bmb$77p$1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
DRSFASAYPE (drsfasaype@aol.com) wrote:
: I'm using a CGI script to POST form data to a web site and return data via
: e-mail. E-mail works for local ISP dial up and AOL. POST routine works for ISP
: but returns message: Cannot retrieve http://www.dwbp-onlinPOST at AOL. Our web
: site address is http://www.dwbp-online.com. Our ISP is stuck on this problem
: and advised to call AOL... hmmm. Any ideas why the POST works well with IE 4.0
: and an ISP and does not work with AOL...?
This isn't really an appropriate place to look for an answer, for
it has nothing to do with Perl.
However, I do happen to know one possible answer.
There is a bug in MSIE's SSLV3, which may be improved in 4.01 but is
present in all earlier versions like that used by AOL. (Microsoft
is not very forthcoming about announcing bugs, so it took me quite a
while to find this.)
If your HTTP server is Stronghold or Netscape Enterprise you can
update to the latest to to work around the problem.
I know of no fixes for other servers, though they may exist.
--
Regards,
Mike Heins
This post reflects the
opinion of my employer.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:45:20 -0500
From: Chipmunk <rjk@coos.dartmouth.edu>
To: System Administrator <root@atrium.cardima.com>
Subject: Re: Odd syntax problem
Message-Id: <34C42BDF.5C55ADDB@coos.dartmouth.edu>
[posted and mailed]
System Administrator wrote:
>
> $_ = join('/', splice(split(/\//, $_), -1, 1)) if (/=/);
>
> $ perl -c tasks
> syntax error in file tasks at line 120, next 2 tokens "(split"
You must be using perl4. I'd suggest upgrading to the latest version
of perl5. When I try compiling the above code with perl5, I get this:
Type of arg 1 to splice must be array (not split) at - line 1, near "1)"
which is a much more useful error message.
Chipmunk
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 04:55:02 GMT
From: mgjv@comdyn.com.au (Martien Verbruggen)
Subject: Re: Odd syntax problem
Message-Id: <6a1an6$l3r$1@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>
In article <6a11pi$2m7$1@usenet48.supernews.com>,
root@atrium.cardima.com (System Administrator) writes:
> $_ = join('/', splice(split(/\//, $_), -1, 1)) if (/=/);
>
> $ perl -c tasks
> syntax error in file tasks at line 120, next 2 tokens "(split"
Which version of perl are you using? Mine tells me what is wrong:
> perl -v
This is perl, version 5.004_04 built for sun4-solaris
> perl
$_ = join('/', splice(split(/\//, $_), -1, 1)) if (/=/);
Type of arg 1 to splice must be array (not split) at - line 1, near "1)"
I suppose that you will have to give splice a real array, not one that
is output by a function.
Martien
--
Martien Verbruggen |
Webmaster www.tradingpost.com.au | If it isn't broken, it doesn't have
Commercial Dynamics Pty. Ltd. | enough features yet.
NSW, Australia |
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:36:44 -0800
From: Harvinder Kalsi <hkalsi@cisco.com>
Subject: ora_errstr not initialized properly using oraperl
Message-Id: <34C41BCB.A198E6FB@cisco.com>
I am calling procedures using ora_open in my perl/ora_perl programs; If
there is a
raise_application_error(-20091, SQLERRM) or
raise_application_error(-20091, 'Error in this part') for example
in the procedure, $ora_errstr variable does not give me the sql message
in
SQLERRM, it always contains same value as $ora_errno that is ORA-20091.
Has anyone else encountered this problem and is there a work around to
get actual
oracle message?
TIA,
Harvinder
------------------------------
Date: 19 Jan 1998 23:13:20 -0500
From: clay@panix.com (Clay Irving)
Subject: Re: Perl5 NT FTP Library
Message-Id: <6a1890$j66@panix.com>
In <34c3d04b.680946266@news.mmc.org> drummj@mail.mmc.org (Jeffrey Drumm) writes:
>On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:20:42 -0500, "David Mohorn"
><david.mohorn@sourcebbs.com> wrote:
>>Does anyone know if there is any Perl-5 for NT libraries for using FTP?
>>
>>...david
>>david.mohorn@norfolkva.ncr.com
>Yes, someone does know. And he/she found out by first checking the source
>from whence all searches for Perl enlightenment spring . . .
>http://www.perl.com.
>There you will find hundreds of modules . . . at least one of which may do
>what you're hoping. Assuming, of course, you're using the "right" Perl.
>Hint: ActiveState's may not be "it".
>If Gurusamy Sarathy's port of Perl 5.004.02 meets your needs, you will find
>that it comes with the libnet modules. They almost work, but a few methods
>aren't quite there yet. What problems I've found with Net::FTP have been
>resolved with release 1.06.03 of libnet, and I assume that later is better.
>The update is easily installable on NT, no C compiler required.
Executive Summary: Yes
--
Clay Irving <clay@panix.com> I think, therefore I am. I think?
http://www.panix.com/~clay/
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 02:53:16 GMT
From: Eli the Bearded <*@qz.to>
Subject: Re: qc(foo,bar,bletch) [Re: perl module question]
Message-Id: <qz$9801192142@qz.little-neck.ny.us>
Joseph N. Hall <joseph@5sigma.com> wrote:
> Y'know, if there were a qc(stuff,morestuff) that worked like
> split /\s*,\s*/, that would be handy.
Then 70% of the world would get annoyed if id didn't handle escaped commas,
25% would get annoyed that it misinterpreted their quotes/backwhacks, and
the rest would argue that this whole qc thing is a misfeature.
> Charles DeRykus wrote:
Why do you always put your response before the quoted reply?
Elijah
------
"baz" generally comes third anyway
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:03:03 -0700
From: "Joseph N. Hall" <joseph@5sigma.com>
Subject: Re: qc(foo,bar,bletch) [Re: perl module question]
Message-Id: <34C41375.78C03565@5sigma.com>
It's easier to read the reply. I got into the habit on a
mail system that arranged things that way, and decided I liked
it.
-joseph
Eli the Bearded wrote:
>
> Why do you always put your response before the quoted reply?
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 04:55:21 GMT
From: "Matt Reprogle" <reprogle@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Redirect stdout on NT! Need some ideas
Message-Id: <01bd255e$bc7b6980$fbaaf6ce@reprogle>
Michael Ng <syng@garlic.engr.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article
<6a05u8$j46$1@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> I forgot about NT and can't load NT to verify right now
> /dev/null is called NUL, if my memory is correct.
>
> About the "2>&1" part. I am not sure about this. But I beleive I saw
some
> threads in this newsgroup talking about this.
>
The "2>&1" means to send file handle 2, a.k.a. standard error (stderr), to
the same place (&) as file handle 1, standard out (stdout).
This is used to send both normal and error output to one output stream.
Another way to write it would be:
ping $host 1.5 > /dev/null 2>/dev/null
Good luck.
Matt Reprogle
reprogle@iquest.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:39:01 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Xiong Wang <xwang@d.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Sorting an Associative Array
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980119193804.24551L-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Xiong Wang wrote:
> Does anybody know how to sort an associate array?
People who have seen what section 4 of the FAQ has to say about this are
ahead of the game... :-)
--
Tom Phoenix http://www.teleport.com/~rootbeer/
rootbeer@teleport.com PGP Skribu al mi per Esperanto!
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
Ask me about Perl trainings!
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 03:05:48 GMT
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <6a14ac$h01$1@news.orst.edu>
In article <6a0iao$i7a$2@comdyn.comdyn.com.au>,
Martien Verbruggen <mgjv@comdyn.com.au> wrote:
>Software that is obscure in the way it works (read: isn't available in
>source code) is not necessarily supported better than source code.
Sigh. I didn't say it is. I didn't say anything about generic cases.
Someone asked why someone would want to use Dan's code instead of
Betty's, and I gave a lot of reasons that people might think important
enough to include in their decision. Every one that I included I have
heard used as a reason either to buy commercial or not to use free.
I don't even particularly care if the reasons are true, they are used by
SOME PEOPLE to make decisions, even if YOU personally don't use them. The
question was why would ANYONE use Dan's code, not why would Martin use
Dan's code.
>I find it a bit odd that you are on this group, and use perl, if you
>believe that commercial/obscure software is better.
I am getting very tired of this ridiculous leap of illogic. I did not
say that every piece of free software was shit and every piece of
commercial software was excellent. I gave SOME REASONS why SOME PEOPLE
might decide to purchase SOME SOFTWARE instead of use a free version, in
the context where someone implied that there were no reasons.
>Why aren't you
>using visual basic, or c++ or some other commercial package?
I use lots of commercial packages. So what?
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 03:30:58 GMT
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <6a15pi$37p$1@news.orst.edu>
In article <Pine.OSF.3.95.980119141329.24048A-100000@primal.ucdavis.edu>,
Jason Christian <jason@primal.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
[almost entire article quoted, deleted]
>Bahamas on the royalties, and he wrote a lot of highly restrictive
>language into the contract which essentially ensured that he (and only
>he) could do anything with the source when he was finished.
If you are trying to educate me about commercial software, then why in
God's name did you agree to such terms in the first place? Why didn't
you find someone else who would do what you wanted the way you wanted
it? Did someone hold a gun to your head?
>in the license, but was written in "TAS", an obscure accounting system
>that only our programmer used, so it was as impossible to upgrade as the
>first program.
My, two programmers who work for you run off and join cults. Hmmm.
It must be something in the water, huh?
>clients. We pay him, quite well, for his time; the cost of our project
So he isn't making a living by giving away code, either.
>I believe that our relationship is consistent with "free software." We
You pay him quite well, and then say this is "free software".
>are not asking, nor receiving, "something for nothing," and our
>programmer is not using us to create a package to sell for a zillion
>dollars down the road.
Hmmm. Let's see. You said that it was costing less because he was
adapting something he wrote for someone else. That means he was saving
a LOT of cost of development and passing some of that on to you. That's
called "profit". If it was alright for him to do that for you, and he
actually DID it for you, why do you expect that there won't be someone
else down the line that he adapts YOUR code for, etc. If he does this
enough times, it will be "making a living". Maybe not a "zillion", but
a living. But he isn't giving his code away for free, now is he?
>There are two different ethoses (what the hell is the plural of ethos?)
>here. One is the ethos of the manufacturer of products, who wants to
>crank out a zillion, err, widgets, and charge a price for those widgets.
>That is an okay ethos, but need not apply to all transactions.
Nor does the other need apply to all transactions. That is all I would
like people to admit.
>That's true. But I will not employ you to develop software for me if
>you won't let me fix the software after you go join a cult.
You have that right. Please show me where I told you that you do not.
But explain why you will employ Microsoft to write software for you
when you have no such control?
>"Free Software" is really, I think, a statement of professionalism and
>professional ethics,
I note that your definition of "free software" is probably the same one
where the only reason you have the software is because you paid someone
for it, and thus it really isn't free.
The differentiation you have made is really one between a
"manufacturing" and a "service" model. It isn't a differentiation
between "professional, ethical" and "non-professional unethical", and I
resent the implication that the manufacturing model is necessarily
unethical and unprofessional. There are lots of professionals who work
in manufacturing just so you can buy those widgets, and they do it quite
ethically.
Is software a "widget" or is it a service? It can be treated both ways.
Both ways are ethical, both can be used by professionals. Shrink-wrapped
commercial software follows the manufacturing model. The one-off stuff
you are paying to have written, in addition to not being free, falls
under the "service" model.
>and can in a great many places serve both client and server.
Show me where I said it cannot.
>The world is full of businesses large and small for which
>the canned solutions offered by micro$oft just don't suffice; if you
>want to serve us, you must follow the path of the professional, which is
>a different occupation from the inventor of and manufacturer of geegaws
>and toys.
I have absolutely no desire to serve you, if you demand that I give you
what I produce for free or be called unethical for not giving it to you.
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 16:07:59 +1100
From: Stuart Cooper <stuartc@ind.tansu.com.au>
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <yeopvlnlols.fsf@kudu.ind.tansu.com.au>
I've been reading this thread with interest and feel like joining the fray.
For those who want a compiler to hide their source code:
- if you want C++ you know where to find it.
Binary code gets stolen more often than source code. The source code of Perl
you are encouraged to share. You're also encouraged to share useful general
solutions through the *.pm modules and CPAN. Read some GNU/FSF evangelism and
get into the spirit.
I'm encouraged by Richard Caley who says that for security important products;
he only uses source code stuff; and that binary-only stuff is used only
for the toy stuff. In my view you can never be sure what the binary might be
doing. But when you can read sources and satisfy yourself a product is
reasonably safe and the programmers knows what they are doing- which I have
always found to be more the case in free software than commercial software.
Indeed, with free, source code software I know what the programmers are doing
whereas in binary software I don't know what the programmers are doing and
by the behaviour of the programs neither do they half the time.
If you think people can't do without commercial/binary-only software; talk
to some Linux users. Indeed, the GNU Free-Unix project grew out of Richard
Stallman's insistence that his computers only run source-code software.
I won't buy into the "need commercial support" argument except one comment
on the "need someone to sue" argument. Commercial software I've seen and
especially shrink-wrapped stuff comes with well written legalese basically to
the extent that the best you'll do is get your money back if the program
screws up. So you'll end up even- except your system is useless or whatever.
Well, if you get Perl for free- you'll end up even too. :)
Also no external company can force you to stop using Perl.
Although newsgroups will pressure you to upgrade from old versions. :)
Easily viewable source; such as you write in interpreted languages (ksh, awk,
sed, TCL etc) and Perl encourage good programming because other people can
see what you've done. It's security/good programming practice through
visibility. If you can take the trouble to program well; you will make a
good living and have a good time. If not... a compiler won't save you.
The uses for a Perl compiler would be for efficiency- ie compiled Perl
binaries are smaller/faster to start up/faster to run/link in with other
languages/etc than Perl scripts.
But as Randal Schwartz says- compiled programs would be trivially
reverse-engineered and it's not the business of a compiler to produce
watertight mystery binaries.
Anyway, Perl *is* a compiler- it compiles your scripts on the fly. You're
always running the script you're looking at. It makes for quicker development
time.
In summary: use Perl as it is and enjoy it.
Stuart Cooper
stuartc@ind.tansu.com.au
------------------------------
Date: 20 Jan 1998 05:47:30 +0000
From: Richard Caley <rjc@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: source into binary code
Message-Id: <eyhu3azd7d9.fsf@liddell.cstr.ed.ac.uk>
In article <yeopvlnlols.fsf@kudu.ind.tansu.com.au>, Stuart Cooper (sc) writes:
sc> I'm encouraged by Richard Caley who says that for security
sc> important products; he only uses source code stuff; and that
sc> binary-only stuff is used only for the toy stuff. In my view you
sc> can never be sure what the binary might be doing. But when you can
sc> read sources and satisfy yourself a product is reasonably safe and
sc> the programmers knows what they are doing
More realisticly for those of us who don't have a background in
security, lots and lots of other people have looked at PGP, BSD
login security and so on. The number of people who have looked at,
say, the encryption built into J Random word processor is tiny by
comparison.
--
rjc@cstr.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 1678
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