[6637] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 262 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Apr 9 20:07:34 1997
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 97 17:00:22 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 9 Apr 1997 Volume: 8 Number: 262
Today's topics:
Call by reference with arrays <knor@infosys.tuwien.ac.at>
DBM problem (Daniel Sundin)
Re: Executing a small EXE on NT/IIS (Duncan Harris)
Re: Executing a small EXE on NT/IIS <_nospam_rasanen@sprynet.com>
help - problem compiling 5.003 on sunos 4.1.3 <drk@rpisun1.mdacc.tmc.edu>
help with database search engine 5.0 (selena sol's) <scott@wwide.com>
Re: Internally formatted variable (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Re: interpolate <gwhassan@prodigy.net>
Re: Learning Perl <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
Re: Learning Perl (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Re: libnet-1.0502 (Broekstra J)
Re: LWP support proxy_authentication yet? <aas@bergen.sn.no>
need help testing variables. bartels@a1.western.tec.wi.us
Re: Need to hack RCS files (The Man on the Scene)
Re: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper <thoenissen@hello.nl>
Problems with LWP on Dynix 4.2.1 (Mark Doyle)
Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and (Fergus Henderson)
Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and (Jason Trenouth)
Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and (Henry Baker)
Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and <bhouse@dazsi.com>
Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and <graham.matthews@maths.anu.edu.au>
Re: system LIST && die NOT system LIST || die ?? <amethyst@maxwell.ml.org>
Re: Unix and ease of use (WAS: Who makes more ...) <tim@a-sis.com>
What cute software names are taken? (Ken Williams)
Re: Who makes more $$ - Windows vs. Unix programmers? (Leslie Mikesell)
Win32::NetResource::NetShareAdd <jrtietsort@micron.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:51:26 +0200
From: Roland Knor <knor@infosys.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Call by reference with arrays
Message-Id: <334C2B7E.6CB5E1CA@infosys.tuwien.ac.at>
I have a small programm, which causes big problems:
#!/usr/bin/perl -d
&test;
sub test
{
local(@a1)=();
&f1(*a1);
print "a1>",@a1,"\n";
}
sub f1
{
local(*l_a1)=@_;
local(@a_tmp);
# save list to temporay list
@a_tmp=@l_a1;
# check whether array has more than 10
elements
if ($#a_tmp<10)
{
push(@a_tmp,1);
&f1(*a_tmp);
}
@l_a1=@a_tmp;
}
I would like to modify an array (@a1) in function f1. Consequently, I
have to make a call by name (or is there another possibility to give an
array to a function?). However in this function, the list is saved to a
temporary list, which is again used as an parameter for function f1. And
here it comes:
When stepping through the debugger, the first function call of f1 works
fine, i.e. @a_tmp is set to (1), but stepping into next level of
recursion, using @a_tmp as a parameter, the local variable *l_a1 is set
to "*main::a_tmp", and the value of "*l_a1", resp. "*main::a_tmp" is (1)
--- ( "()" only symbolize the list-attribute) --- However, stepping over
the expression local(@a_tmp), the content of @l_a1 is reset to (),
because @l_a1 is a name-variable for @a_tmp, which is now local (and
empty).
Obviously, the call-by-name mechanism doesn't consider to make a
distinction between variable-names in different levels of recursion.
So: Is there any way of using an array as single parameter for a
function so that I can gain push and pop access to the array.
The solution
&f1(@array)
sub
{
(@local_array)=@_;
.
.
.
}
is not satisfying, because I cannot push @local_array in order to modify
@array.
Any "perl-Genius", who can help me to overcome this problem will earn
many "Thank You"-s
Roland
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:01:36 GMT
From: daniel.sundin@engelholm.se (Daniel Sundin)
Subject: DBM problem
Message-Id: <314b1c2e.7425713@skarjeke.ind.mh.se>
I've learnt how to store records using DBM databases, when storing
like:
$DB{$foo} = $bar;
which will save a key and a value, but nothing else.
The problem is, I want to save more than one value to each key.
I figured this could be done like:
$DB{$foo} = { "Name" => "Daniel", "Address" => "BOX 1221");
but it doesnt seem to work, all I get in $foo is a pointer to a hash,
and I cant dereference it, get the values :(
Daniel
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 23:13:27 GMT
From: duncan@sapio.co.uk (Duncan Harris)
Subject: Re: Executing a small EXE on NT/IIS
Message-Id: <memo.970410001255.124A@sapio.compulink.co.uk>
In article <01bc438f$4009ce20$24e8aec7@vesa>, _nospam_rasanen@sprynet.com
(Rdsdnen) wrote:
> Below is a small perl script, which works perfectly if the very first
> line
> with "system" is commented.
> The program htu2.exe runs also perfectly, if the task is started from
> "Start, Run, htu1.exe", and I verified that dcomcnfg has been set to
> allow
> default permissions for the IUSR_<machine> to launch programs.
>
> Why might the "system" line not be ok via a Perl script?
>
> In case it matters, this is on a NT4 box with IIS3. All other perl
> scripts
> run fine.
Have you got the CreateProcessWithNewConsole registry parameter
set? There is an article in the MS KB (search for IIS and Perl on MS web
site). Here is the answer bit:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Start Registry Editor (Regedt32.exe) and locate the following registry
subkey in the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE subtree:
\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\W3SVC\Parameters
2. Click Add Value on the Edit menu.
3. Type the following:
Value Name: CreateProcessWithNewConsole
Data Type: REG_DWORD
Data Value = 1
NOTE: Creating a new console for each CGI script has serious performance
implications and should not be done unless slower performance is
acceptable.
--
Duncan Harris, Sapio Design Ltd, Manchester, U.K.
~~~~~~~~~~~ mailto:duncan@sapio.co.uk ~~~~~~~~~~~
Web on CD-ROM? Check out http://www.sapio.co.uk/
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 17:46:37 GMT
From: "Rdsdnen" <_nospam_rasanen@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Executing a small EXE on NT/IIS
Message-Id: <01bc450d$ea866960$d5aeaec7@vesa>
Scott,
Thank you for the reply.
The path "n:\" is a local, physical hard drive (The server has two physical
drives, and these are mapped as C: and N:)
Thus, anyone on our network can walk over to any workstation and type into
Start, Run, \\servername\n\path\myexe.exe, and it will run just fine.
But in my case, of course you are correct in that NT4 and IIS3 uses the
SYSTEM authority to run programs, and it now appears I can not use this
solution unless there is a way to allow the System to do this.
I even tried to use a server root (in NT4 it is c:\inetpub\wwwroot and also
c:\inetpub\scripts )
So, again, the drive n: is not a network drive, but a local, physical hard
drive on the server. NT's Disk Manager allows you to assign any drive
letters you wish to additional cdroms and drives.
Thanks again.
--
rasanen@sprynet.com
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/rasanen/
scott@lighthouse.softbase.com wrote in article
<5ie3o6$mru$1@mainsrv.main.nc.us>...
> Rdsdnen (_nospam_rasanen@sprynet.com) wrote:
>
> : Why might the "system" line not be ok via a Perl script?
>
> In Win32 + IIS, there are usually two culprits:
>
> 1. The IIS environment defines a weird path. Make sure
> your program is on the path, and can be accessed from
> within an IIS session. (I don't think IIS does a
> chroot-like call to make other directories invisible,
> but you never know.)
>
> 2. You may have permission to run this program
> from the command line, but scripts started
> by IIS may not.
>
> Also, in your case, make sure the network drive n: is available,
> unless this is really a local drive.
>
> Scott
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:21:28 -0500
From: Darrell Kachilla <drk@rpisun1.mdacc.tmc.edu>
Subject: help - problem compiling 5.003 on sunos 4.1.3
Message-Id: <334BB3F8.757C@rpisun1.mdacc.tmc.edu>
sh Configure ran ok
but make
ran and finally died at:
util.c: In function `Perl_croak':
util.c:962: number of arguments doesn't match prototype
proto.h:45: prototype declaration
util.c: In function `Perl_warn':
util.c:1017: number of arguments doesn't match prototype
proto.h:466: prototype declaration
make: *** [util.o] Error 1
anyone with a simple fix? a non-simple one ? :-)
thanx in advance
Summary of my perl5 (5.0 patchlevel 3 subversion 0) configuration:
Platform:
osname=sunos, osver=4.1.3_u1, archname=sun4-sunos
uname='sunos recon 4.1.3_u1 6 sun4m '
hint=previous, useposix=true, d_sigaction=define
Compiler:
cc='gcc', optimize='-O', gccversion=2.5.8
cppflags='-I/usr/local/include'
ccflags ='-I/usr/local/include'
stdchar='unsigned char', d_stdstdio=define, usevfork=true
voidflags=15, castflags=0, d_casti32=define, d_castneg=define
intsize=4, alignbytes=8, usemymalloc=y, randbits=31
Linker and Libraries:
ld='ld', ldflags =' -L/usr/local/lib'
libpth=/usr/local/lib /lib /usr/lib /usr/ucblib
libs=-lnsl -lgdbm -ldbm -ldl -lm -lc -lposix
libc=/lib/libc.so.1.9, so=so
Dynamic Linking:
dlsrc=dl_dlopen.xs, dlext=so, d_dlsymun=undef, ccdlflags=' '
cccdlflags='-fpic', lddlflags='-assert nodefinitions
-L/usr/local/lib'
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darrell Kachilla - working but not speaking for...
M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Diagnostic Imaging -57
1515 Holcombe Blvd., Houston, Tx 77030
drk@rpisun1.mdacc.tmc.edu W: 713-745-2361 FAX: 713-745-0581
http://recon.mda.uth.tmc.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:48:56 -0100
From: Scott Wittenberg <scott@wwide.com>
Subject: help with database search engine 5.0 (selena sol's)
Message-Id: <334BAC57.7949@wwide.com>
I realize this is a long shot to post this here but I need help and you
guys seem like the people that can help. I have installed and am using
Selena Sol's database search engine 5.0 (
http://www.eff.org/~erict/Scripts/database_manager.html )
and have applied all patches found at The Selena Sol Script Archive
Discussion Forum ( http://www.sidestreets.com/info/sssa/ ) in the
database search engine forum. The only problem I am still facing is
that there is a bug that does not carry your post thru your search..
example:
i search for apples,
the reply comes back and says "your search found 50 matches" and the
first page displays 25 hits, then there is a button to click to get your
next 25 hits, but when you click that it displays the whole database
because it is not carrying my keywords. If anyone has fixed this bug or
happens to care to PLEASE let me know.
Thanks,
Scott
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 20:34:04 GMT
From: nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Subject: Re: Internally formatted variable
Message-Id: <5igufs$hdi@fridge-nf0.shore.net>
Dominic Langlois (langlois@ccg.RNcan.gc.ca) wrote:
: First, excuse-me about my poor english. I am not sure if my question is
: trivial
[snip]
Your English is great, but your linewrap is making me dizzy. :-)
: sprintf (referId, "%04d", id); .
perl -e '$val = 22; $foo = sprintf("%04d", $val); print $foo,"\n";'
: I have searched in the Llama and Camel books some references or examples
: but
Are you sure you were looking at the same Llama and Camel books that I am?
You might also refer to the FAQ, available at http://www.perl.com/FAQ
--
Nathan V. Patwardhan
nvp@shore.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 06:16:52 +0000
From: Greg Hassan <gwhassan@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: interpolate
Message-Id: <334B3454.33DEB91@prodigy.net>
Bart Lateur wrote:
>
> It would be nice if Perl had a built-in function to interpolate
> variables in strings, on user demand, so that
>
> $orig = 'The file has $num lines.';
> $string = interpolate($orig);
>
> would have the same effect as
>
> $string = "The file has $num lines.";
>
can't you put a place holder like: $orig = 'The file has <num> lines.';
then maybe something like so:
sub interpolate
{
return s/<([^>]+)>/${$1}/g;
}
just my thoughts,
Greg
--
============================================
Greg Hassan
The Independent Solution
Web Developer (CGI, Java, C, Perl, Oracle)
http://www.hassan.com/
gwhassan@prodigy.net, 1-415-969-5856
============================================
------------------------------
Date: 09 Apr 1997 13:47:50 -0700
From: Randal Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com>
To: glen@mhm-internet.com
Subject: Re: Learning Perl
Message-Id: <8c912r2aa1.fsf@gadget.cscaper.com>
>>>>> "Glen" == Glen Harris <glen@mhm-internet.com> writes:
Glen> I am just starting to use Perl, and have bought the Learning Perl book,
Glen> There has been alot of talk about the book and people have different
Glen> views on the book, could anybody give me some guidance on how to use it?
Glen> Shall I just concentrate on going through each chapter of shall I start
Glen> somewhere else in the book ?
It was actually meant to be read holding all the odd-numbered pages up
to a mirror, facing East of course, unless you're under the 25th parallel
on a Tuesday.
Or, for simpler instructions, *yes*... just read from the beginning
until you're tired of reading. Repeat as necessary. Joe Bob says "do
the exercises." If it was meant to be read a different way, you'd
have read that somewhere by now. :-)
print "Just another Perl hacker," # but not what the media calls "hacker!" :-)
## legal fund: $20,495.69 collected, $182,159.85 spent; just 509 more days
## before I go to *prison* for 90 days; email fund@stonehenge.com for details
--
Name: Randal L. Schwartz / Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095
Keywords: Perl training, UNIX[tm] consulting, video production, skiing, flying
Email: <merlyn@stonehenge.com> Snail: (Call) PGP-Key: (finger merlyn@ora.com)
Web: <A HREF="http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/">My Home Page!</A>
Quote: "I'm telling you, if I could have five lines in my .sig, I would!" -- me
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 23:35:17 GMT
From: nvp@shore.net (Nathan V. Patwardhan)
Subject: Re: Learning Perl
Message-Id: <5ih93l$t2a@fridge-nf0.shore.net>
Randal Schwartz (merlyn@stonehenge.com) wrote:
: Glen> Shall I just concentrate on going through each chapter of shall I start
: Glen> somewhere else in the book ?
I've found that reading a chapter, finding something 'interesting,' and
trying it out has had the best results for me over time. I've also found
that creating a problem, defining the problem, and working in tandem with
_Learning Perl's_ 'tasty' index to implement the solution has been useful.
--
Nathan V. Patwardhan
nvp@shore.net
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 17:56:54 GMT
From: jbroeks@cs.vu.nl (Broekstra J)
Subject: Re: libnet-1.0502
Message-Id: <5igl96$dqd@star.cs.vu.nl>
Antonio Paulo Salgado Forster (forster@hq.rnp.br) wrote:
: I got the following error message everytime I try to run Makefile.PL:
:
: Can't locate IO/File.pm in @INC at Makefile.PL line 70.
: BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Makefile.PL line 70.
[snip]
: I have looked for File.pm in all directories in @INC, but I can't find
: it... Could someone give me a hint? In libnet....readme, it says nothing
: about requiring some previous module, but only Perl version 5.002 or
: better...
: Should I install Perl again?
Not necessarily. You could just install the IO package, which you can get
from CPAN. Mind you, this will only work if you have compiled perl with
dynamic loading enabled. This IO package is supposed to be in standard
distribution, but somehow it wasn't in the 5.003 I installed (or maybe I
misread).
If this is too big a bother you can also choose to install the beta version
of perl 5.004, which _does_ carry the IO package in the standard distribution.
HTH.
Cheers,
J1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
J1 Broekstra
"It's sad that, in our blindness, jbroeks@cs.vu.nl
we gather thorns for flowers." http://www.cs.vu.nl/~jbroeks/
------------------------------
Date: 09 Apr 1997 15:06:14 +0000
From: Gisle Aas <aas@bergen.sn.no>
Subject: Re: LWP support proxy_authentication yet?
Message-Id: <h912sutg9.fsf@bergen.sn.no>
Jim O'Connor <jim.oconnor@amp.com> writes:
> Does anyone know if libwww supports proxy_authentication yet?
Try to add a header like this one to all the requests you send:
$req->header('Proxy-Authorization' =>
'Basic ' . MIME::Base64::encode("$user:$passwd", ''));
--
Gisle Aas <aas@sn.no>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 97 10:09:38 +600
From: bartels@a1.western.tec.wi.us
Subject: need help testing variables.
Message-Id: <5igbab$bn1@defcon.western.tec.wi.us>
Hello,
I'm new to perling. I need to do a few things.
I need to test a variable to make sure it is an integer. Meaning, no
scientific, no decimals, no alpha charaters. Just digits 0-9.
Second, I need to test a variable to see if it's a viable URL.
I'm writing a program that creates counter files and I need to test this data.
Thanks in advance,
Lyndon F. Bartels
bartels@a1.western.tec.wi.us
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 15:35:10 GMT
From: shaug@callamer.com (The Man on the Scene)
Subject: Re: Need to hack RCS files
Message-Id: <5igcve$p8g$1@zinger.callamer.com>
In article <860589133.67255@red.parallax.co.uk>,
paddy.spencer@parallax.co.uk (Paddy Spencer) writes:
> clines@airmail.net (Kevin Cline) kirjoittanut::
>
>: Does anyone have any code to parse RCS files?
>
> Erm, I've got the RCS binaries[1]; they generally do a pretty good
> job.
>
> If they're not enough I've got a text editor.
>
> What _specifically_ do you want?
>
> -----------------
> [1] Is use of the "b" word frowned upon round here?
How about the gratuitous use of footnotes? ;)
--
O'Shaughnessy Evans
UNIX/Internet Systems Administrator, GST-Call America; SLO, CA
mailto: shaug@callamer.com; http://gromit.callamer.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 23:08:35 +0200
From: Karel Thvnissen <thoenissen@hello.nl>
Subject: Re: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper
Message-Id: <334C0553.15D6@hello.nl>
Donn Cave wrote:
> In a sense this only proves your point - without more rigorous
> definitions, we only end up arguing about semantics and lose the
Obviously you do not understand what semantics is. You remind me of the
British PM who once said about the discussion on further European
integration 'Mere Semantics'. As if semantics is not what it is all
about!!
> [....]
> Donn Cave, University Computing Services, University of Washington
> donn@u.washington.edu
Semantics amongst CS people is widely understood as the study of the
effect of expressions (usually programs) on the machine. However,
Semantics Proper studies the relationship between signs and the things
they stand for. Semantics as understood by CS is a special branch of
syntactics! (explaining one sign through equivalence in terms of
another)
Groeten, Karel
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 22:27:21 GMT
From: doyle@aps.org (Mark Doyle)
Subject: Problems with LWP on Dynix 4.2.1
Message-Id: <5ih549$p8h@sun20.ccd.bnl.gov>
Hi,
I am trying to do some simple things with LWP and I have encountered an error
that I can't quite diagnose. Basically, it seems that the select statement in
site_perl/auto/LWP/IO/write.al is failing, but beyond that I don't know how I
can fix the problem.
Here is my test script:
#!/usr/local/bin/perl -w
use Carp;
use LWP::UserAgent;
use HTTP::Request;
$ua = new LWP::UserAgent;
$request = new HTTP::Request (GET => 'http://www.aps.org/');
$response = $ua->request($request);
$error = $response->error_as_HTML();
print "$error\n";
and here is the error output:
An Error Occurred
500 - Select failed: Bad file number.
Probably of interest as well is that when I use libwww-perl-5.08 I get the
following errors when doing make test:
robot/ua............Useless use of gethostbyname in void context at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/Sys/Hostname.pm line 42.
FAILED tests 1-3, 5, 7
Failed 5/7 tests, 28.57% okay
Failed 1 test script, 96.00% okay. 5/640 subtests failed, 99.22% okay.
although this might be unrelated to the above problem because using version
5.04, the make test succeeded, but I still had the same problem with failed
selects.
Can any shed light on either problem?
Cheers,
Mark
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 14:43:02 GMT
From: fjh@murlibobo.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fergus Henderson)
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Message-Id: <5ig9tm$315@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
Graham Matthews <graham.matthews@maths.anu.edu.au> writes:
>... Java is taking off commercially and yet
>it is essentially a subset of Smalltalk.
Hmm, didn't you forget to put the phrase "strongly typed" somewhere?
Perhaps the reason that Java is taking off commercially is that it is
seen as essentially a subset of <insert your favorite language here> ;-)
--
Fergus Henderson <fjh@cs.mu.oz.au> | "I have always known that the pursuit
WWW: <http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~fjh> | of excellence is a lethal habit"
PGP: finger fjh@128.250.37.3 | -- the last words of T. S. Garp.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:21:59 GMT
From: jason@harlequin.co.uk (Jason Trenouth)
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Message-Id: <33688919.1305647828@newshost>
On 7 Apr 1997 04:47:45 -0500, wilson@cs.utexas.edu (Paul Wilson) wrote:
> One of the saddest things about Java is that it screams for an
> interactive implementation, rather than batch compilation. (Unlike
> C++, it's got enough checking by default to build an uncrashable
> interaction environment.)
>
> Once there are interactive implementations, the dichotomy between
> scripting and systems languages will be less obvious.
> (And if you made type declarations optional in scripts, that
> would go much further.)
Checkout Asymetrix SuperCede:
http://www.asymetrix.com/schome/
for some steps in this direction.
__Jason
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:55:10 GMT
From: hbaker@netcom.com (Henry Baker)
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Message-Id: <hbaker-0904970755100001@10.0.2.1>
In article <334B68EC.3F66@maths.anu.edu.au>, Graham Matthews
<graham.matthews@maths.anu.edu.au> wrote:
> There is a much simpler reason why all these ugly languages about -- its
> called intertia. There was a lot of code written in the 70s in ugly
> languages -- written before we knew how to make good languages. All that
> code has to be supported, interfaced to, etc, so all the ugly languges
> it is written in are now the standard. Simple.
There are far more ugly programs than ugly languages. Using a 'good'
language does not guarantee pretty programs. In fact, since a 'good'
language has immense power, it is possible to write uglier
programs in a 'good' language, than it is to write ugly programs in
a 'bad' language. This, of course, is one of the justifications I've
seen for forcing people to write in 'bad' languages !!
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 21:13:34 GMT
From: "Bill House" <bhouse@dazsi.com>
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Message-Id: <01bc4529$5ff68b60$03d3c9d0@wjh_dell_133.dazsi.com>
John Ousterhout <ouster@tcl.eng.sun.com> wrote in article
<5ighvq$etn@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM>...
>
> Sorry, but this doesn't really make sense. For example, if "ugly
languages"
> refers to Tcl or Perl or C++, none of these languages even existed in the
> 1970s. In contrast, various flavors of Lisp have been around since at
least
> the early 60's and Smalltalk first appeared in the late 60's. Every
single
> programmer who ever wrote a program in Tcl, Perl, C++, Visual Basic, or
even
> C could have chosen Lisp, Scheme, or Smalltalk. But they didn't. If you
> want to know the truth, I think you need to stop making superficial
excuses
> and ask deeper semantic questions. There really is something better
about
> each of these "ugly languages" that gives them an advantage over the
"good"
> languages; I'll leave it up to you to figure out what it is.
>
That argument ignores the issues of tool availability and market awareness.
For example, in the WinTel world, one could point to the dearth of Tcl
applications as an aspersion on the "deeper semantic issues" of the tool,
but that would be wrong. It's not that all VB programmers have evaluated
against Tcl,. it's that most VB programmers don't know about Tcl, don't
hear much (if anything) about it and don't care -- for them, it's a
non-issue.
People use the tools that are available for them to use. From the list of
candidates, they choose based on perceived values that only include
quality. Familiarity, job security and market advantage are other drivers.
Note the word "perceived". Who can really tell how a language is going to
work out before implementing a few systems? Who gets the word out? The big
advantage that these so-called "ugly" languages enjoy is in part based on
marketing and the fact that companies are packaging the technology in tools
that people can use.
Other languages, such as Lisp, also suffer from this dynamic. Lisp is
perceived as some obscure, experimental language that is inherently slow.
None of this is necessarily true, but perception prevents many WinTel
programmers from even investigating the options. This loss of a potential
market in turn suppresses venture capital for Lisp products, limiting the
number of vendors. The fact that these programmers you speak of didn't
choose Lisp is most likely because Lisp was not even seen as a candidate,
and thus not even tried.
Bill House
--
bhouse@dazsi.com
http://www.dazsi.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:17:26 +1000
From: Graham Matthews <graham.matthews@maths.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Message-Id: <334C2386.2916@maths.anu.edu.au>
Bill House wrote:
John Ousterhout <ouster@tcl.eng.sun.com> wrote in article
> Sorry, but this doesn't really make sense. For example, if "ugly
> languages" refers to Tcl or Perl or C++, none of these languages
> even existed in the 1970s.
Bill House wrote:
> That argument ignores the issues of tool availability and market awareness.
> For example, in the WinTel world, one could point to the dearth of Tcl
> applications as an aspersion on the "deeper semantic issues" of the tool,
> but that would be wrong.
> ...
> People use the tools that are available for them to use. From the list of
> candidates, they choose based on perceived values that only include
> quality.
>..
> Other languages, such as Lisp, also suffer from this dynamic. Lisp is
> perceived as some obscure, experimental language that is inherently slow.
> None of this is necessarily true,
Bill you are letting rational argument and empirical fact get in the way
of the barrow you have to push :-) :-) [for the humour impaired]
graham
--
The girls is all salty, the boys is all sweet,
the food ain't too shabby
an' they piss in the streets
In France, way down in France, way on down, way on down in France
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 21:12:56 GMT
From: Neil Moore <amethyst@maxwell.ml.org>
Subject: Re: system LIST && die NOT system LIST || die ??
Message-Id: <m2iv1vsxwn.fsf@maxwell.ml.org>
Ken Anderson <anderson@necsys.gsfc.nasa.gov> writes:
> page 154 of the llama book indicates that
>
> system LIST
>
> works "backwards from normal Perl operator convention"
> in that the example shown indicates it should be used like
> this:
>
> system LIST && die LIST;
>
> as opposed to a "normal" construct:
>
> perl-operator LIST || die LIST;
>
>
> This is, i'm sure, the source of my current problem,
> but i still don't quite "get it". Can anyone explain?
Normal Perl operators return a true value if they succeed,
and a false value if they fail. For hysterical reasons,
system (actually, the individual programs) does exactly the
opposite -- you generally get 0 if the program executed
successfully, and non-zero if it failed.
This is due to the Unix convention of (surprise) returning
0 in the case of success, nonzero in the case of error.
This is done, I would presume, because there are more ways
to fail than there are to succeed.
--
-Neil Moore http://www.sfhs.floyd.k12.ky.us/~amethyst/
(finger amethyst@valjean.sfhs.floyd.k12.ky.us for my Geek Code)
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 15:01:19 GMT
From: "Tim Behrendsen" <tim@a-sis.com>
Subject: Re: Unix and ease of use (WAS: Who makes more ...)
Message-Id: <01bc44f6$d03f8a80$87ee6fce@timpent.a-sis.com>
Anthony Boyd <anthony@outshine.com> wrote in article
<anthony-0804972321130001@anthony.outshine.com>...
> "Tim Behrendsen" <tim@a-sis.com> wrote:
> > But I don't even need to go there. Name one freely available
> > *significant* product that is *clearly* better than *any* commercial
> > product, regardless of price.
>
> Tim, are you *trying* to prove Peter's point? Good free product is
> everywhere, in such abundance that I can't believe you'd think it's not.
I didn't say that there weren't good, or even excellent free
products around. I said name one that is better than *ANY*
commercial software, *REGARDLESS* of price, and of sufficient
complexity.
> GifBuilder is free and the best GIF animator I've used.
That you've used; you think it's better than professional animation
programs that movie studios use?
> Perl is free and
> boy, is it handy.
Perl is the one good example that someone e-mailed to me, and there
isn't a better commercial alternative that I know of. But while
it's hugely useful, I also specified that it the product had to
be sufficiently complex, and while it's not insignificantly
complicated, it's not hugely complex either. I really not trying
to trash Perl; it's a marvelous program. I'll even concede this
point because it's so good.
> Linux is free and thousands of corporations & SOHOs use
> it.
It's good, but it's far from the best Unix. Let's live in reality.
> Apache is free and is the world's most popular and (IMHO) most
> reliable Web server.
I don't have enough information to refute this; I don't know
what the professional high-end web servers look like.
> MT NewsWatcher is free, and I'm using it to post
> this instead of my (paid in full) copy of Netscape.
A news browser is definitely below the complexity requirement.
> Internet Explorer is
> 100% free, and while I HATE the Windows version, the Macintosh version is
> clearly done by people who LOVE what they do.
Well, but somehow I don't think the freeware advocates would call
IE non-commercial software. It's a loss leader.
> JPEGView on the Mac is free
> and displays JPEGs with better color quality than any other program I
> own.
You're trying to tell me that JPEGView is going to be better than
professional photographic color processing software used by huge
publishing houses? Doubtful.
--
==========================================================================
| Tim Behrendsen (tim@a-sis.com) | http://www.cerfnet.com/~timb |
| "Judge all, and be prepared to be judged by all." |
==========================================================================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 11:31:46 -0400
From: ken@forum.swarthmore.edu (Ken Williams)
Subject: What cute software names are taken?
Message-Id: <ken-0904971131460001@news.swarthmore.edu>
Hi there-
Let's say I've written some software, and I want to give it a cute name,
but I don't want to give it a name that's already taken. Does anybody
know of any on-line resources where I can check the availability of names
(I guess it might be a list of names of programming languages, software,
etc.)?
Thanks.
-Ken Williams, The Math Forum
ken@forum.swarthmore.edu
------------------------------
Date: 9 Apr 1997 10:02:16 -0500
From: les@MCS.COM (Leslie Mikesell)
Subject: Re: Who makes more $$ - Windows vs. Unix programmers?
Message-Id: <5igb1o$cm$1@Venus.mcs.net>
In article <5ifncd$okb@bcrkh13.bnr.ca>,
Kaz Kylheku <kaz@vision.crest.nt.com> wrote:
>> Unix is what it is ... a ``UNIfied eXecutive'' -- an so it should
>> be understood ... Amen! But if you wish, go fondeling your FAQ ...
>
>Sorry, your silly insistence that UNIX stands for ``UNIfied eXecutive'' (ha ha)
>doesn't make it so.
>
>The fact that UNIX is a pun on Multics is no urban legend, but a simple
>historic fact. If you don't believe Lawrence Kirby, please write mail to
>Brian Kernighan.
Doesn't the term 'pun' imply that you can infer multiple meanings? A
UNIfied eXecutive is a good description of unix. If you accept the
concept that an operating system can be simplified to the point that
it only needs one way of creating a new process (duplicating an
existing process) and that the newly created process should take
care of any additional transformations it needs then the rest of
the unix design just falls into place.
Les Mikesell
les@mcs.com
------------------------------
Date: 8 Apr 1997 20:20:43 GMT
From: "Lan Services" <jrtietsort@micron.com>
Subject: Win32::NetResource::NetShareAdd
Message-Id: <01bc445a$87888db0$9b6ac989@jrtietsort>
Has anyone had any luck with this function? No matter what I try, I cannot
seem to get this to work. My code....
$ShareInfo{'path'} = "d:\\dummy";
$ShareInfo{'netname'} = "$username";
$ShareInfo{'remark'} = "script generated";
$ShareInfo{'passwd'} = '';
$ShareInfo{'current-users'} = 0;
$ShareInfo{'permissions'} = 1;
$ShareInfo{'maxusers'} = 10;
$ShareInfo{'type'} = 10;
Win32::NetResource::NetShareAdd($ShareInfo, $parm, "NTDATA02") or die
"could not make share: $!";
Thanks for any advice...
JR Tietsort
jrtietsort@micron.com
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 262
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