[32842] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4108 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Sat Jan 4 00:09:33 2014
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 21:09:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 3 Jan 2014 Volume: 11 Number: 4108
Today's topics:
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013 <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Syntax understanding problem <justin.1303@purestblue.com>
Re: Syntax understanding problem <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Syntax understanding problem <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 10:13:13 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <9eqdnUwAlfCFDVjPnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:JJ-dnUZ2ZeWSv1zPnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@earthlink.com...
There is a new computer programming language related project getting
started. More will be likely be posted about this to a number of program
language Newsgroups including Perl. This is a preliminary notice for the
Perl Newsgroup since this subject matter has already been discussed here.
Scientists and amateur researchers need a free programming language
that they can get to run "out of the box." That means that they can simply
download it, install it if necessary, and then immediately start writing
program code. It will then run or compile with no problems. And, it needs
to be able to run in 32 and 64 bit Windows environments running XP, Vista, 7
and 8.
The language needs to have an interactive capability. For example,
when running, the program could draw a chart. And by pressing various keys
the user could get the data displayed on the chart to change. The Enter key
would not need to be pressed. The language would also need to have some
type of "sleep" command that causes the program to temporarily stop running
and using processor time.
Perl already has two different types of "sleep" commands with the
version I myself am using. And I have used both of them extensively over
the years.
Standard Perl can interactively display charts if it is linked with
Gnuplot or some other graphics program. But the process is too slow and
complex. And I myself have not yet been able to determine how to get the
PDL module to work properly.
As a consequence, at the moment it does not look like Perl will be
used for this science language. However, since Perl can easily read a key
press and send active Windows programs information as if it were typed in on
the keyboard, a Perl program might be used to monitor the keyboard etc. and
then send key press information to some other program such as a Fortran
program if the Fortran program does not have that capability.
Plans are to create a Web page where information regarding that
programming language will be displayed. Instructions will be there that
tell researchers around the world how to download the programming language,
get it running, and then start creating programs.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:34:52 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <87mwjepck3.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
[...]
> Standard Perl can interactively display charts if it is linked
> with Gnuplot or some other graphics program. But the process is too
> slow and complex. And I myself have not yet been able to determine
> how to get the PDL module to work properly.
>
> As a consequence, at the moment it does not look like Perl will
> be used for this science language.
If you spent as much time trying to solve technical problems you
encounter as you spend with whining about them, you'd achieve much
better results ...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 11:27:44 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <4q2dnWaZpPwSPFjPnZ2dnUVZ_jqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote in message
news:87mwjepck3.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com...
> If you spent as much time trying to solve technical problems you
> encounter as you spend with whining about them, you'd achieve much
> better results ...
In my opinion, it shouldn't be necessary to "solve" some type of
problem in order to get a computer programming language to run.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 18:06:27 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <87iou2p8bg.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> "Rainer Weikusat" <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote:
>> If you spent as much time trying to solve technical problems you
>> encounter as you spend with whining about them, you'd achieve much
>> better results ...
>
> In my opinion, it shouldn't be necessary to "solve" some type of
> problem in order to get a computer programming language to run.
In my opinion, problems are generally not necessary, and I could do
beautifully without them :->.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 11:51:05 -0800
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <9vebc91n3ibus6ugk9qlpoe0ppjgaemos4@4ax.com>
[unplonking our new old troll for the time being]
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:JJ-dnUZ2ZeWSv1zPnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Scientists and amateur researchers need a free programming language
>that they can get to run "out of the box." That means that they can simply
>download it, install it if necessary, and then immediately start writing
>program code. It will then run or compile with no problems.
There are probably a few thousand of those, why create a new one?
> And, it needs
>to be able to run in 32 and 64 bit Windows environments running XP, Vista, 7
>and 8.
Now, that's an interesting restriction. Why only on one single platform?
I would expect the most important requirement of a general solution
would be portability and thus being able to run on a multitude of
different common platforms.
> The language needs to have an interactive capability.
Except for special application like e.g. process control languages any
programming language has interactive capabilities.
>For example,
>when running, the program could draw a chart. And by pressing various keys
>the user could get the data displayed on the chart to change.
Nonsense. For a million very good reasons graphics are almost never part
of a programming language but are added via modules (packages, units,
libraries, ...). One positive exception is Logo. And in days gone by
special graphics terminals had their own programming language.
And I think Apple ][ Basic had something like "drawline", too, but then
of course that was a single-user stand-alone system.
>The Enter key
>would not need to be pressed.
That has nothing to do with the programming language but only with the
user interface. And the hardware(!) may or may not support such a
feature.
>The language would also need to have some
>type of "sleep" command that causes the program to temporarily stop running
>and using processor time.
Doesn't it also need expressions, statements, loops, and a few other
things?
> As a consequence, at the moment it does not look like Perl will be
>used for this science language.
Thanks heavens.
>However, since Perl can easily read a key
>press and send active Windows programs information as if it were typed in on
>the keyboard, a Perl program might be used to monitor the keyboard etc. and
>then send key press information to some other program such as a Fortran
>program if the Fortran program does not have that capability.
You seem to be a strong believer in "why choose an easy solution when I
can make it complicated".
> Plans are to create a Web page where information regarding that
>programming language will be displayed. Instructions will be there that
>tell researchers around the world how to download the programming language,
>get it running, and then start creating programs.
Well, yeah, good luck. Whatever. Apparently you don't know that there
are gazillions of such sites already?
Oh, one more note: maybe before you create the download instructions you
might want to create your mythical language first.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:59:07 -0500
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <87iou2xcyc.fsf@new.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
EDG> As a consequence, at the moment it does not look like
EDG> Perl will be used for this science language. However, since
EDG> Perl can easily read a key press and send active Windows
EDG> programs information as if it were typed in on the keyboard, a
EDG> Perl program might be used to monitor the keyboard etc. and
EDG> then send key press information to some other program such as a
EDG> Fortran program if the Fortran program does not have that
EDG> capability.
EDG> Plans are to create a Web page where information regarding
EDG> that programming language will be displayed. Instructions will
EDG> be there that tell researchers around the world how to download
EDG> the programming language, get it running, and then start
EDG> creating programs.
So you can't think logically or clearly enough to muddle your way
through Perl or Fortran, but you're going to create an entirely new
language?
This should be fucking rich.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:56:07 -0500
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <87ppoaxd3c.fsf@new.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
EDG> In my opinion, it shouldn't be necessary to "solve" some type
EDG> of problem in order to get a computer programming language to
EDG> run.
In my opinion, those who are so fucking terrified of potential problems
that they spend dozens of kilobytes yammering in the vaguest of
generalities about what "the scientific community" needs ought to take
up a different hobby.
You whined that Perl was not suitable to your needs, and warned us all
that you were considering Python and Julia instead. Go, use Python,
with my blessing, and whine about your potential problems elsewhere.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 23:56:04 +0000
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: PDL Questions - Dec. 21, 2013
Message-Id: <ktahpa-7n3.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>
Quoth Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>:
>
> Nonsense. For a million very good reasons graphics are almost never part
> of a programming language but are added via modules (packages, units,
> libraries, ...). One positive exception is Logo. And in days gone by
> special graphics terminals had their own programming language.
PostScript?
> And I think Apple ][ Basic had something like "drawline", too, but then
> of course that was a single-user stand-alone system.
Most micro BASICs had some sort of drawing facility. BBC BASIC had a
rather nice set of primitives (which in fact just passed straight
through to the MOS).
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 09:38:43 +0000
From: Justin C <justin.1303@purestblue.com>
Subject: Re: Syntax understanding problem
Message-Id: <32dipa-bva.ln1@zem.masonsmusic.co.uk>
On 2013-12-22, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote:
> tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) writes:
>> In article <jf1joa-t9n.ln1@moonlight.purestblue.com>,
>> Justin C <justin.1312@purestblue.com> wrote:
>>>/^Relayed message/ and $discard = 0, next;
>> ...
>>>The confusing part, for me, in perldoc perlop WRT the comma
>>>operator, is ``In scalar context it evaluates its left argument,
>>>throws that value away, then evaluates its right argument and
>>>returns that value''. I can understand the ``throws ... away''
>>>if I had:
>>>
>>>/^match/ and call_a_sub(foo), next;
>>>
>>>the return of call_a_sub would be discarded, but the assignment
>>>in my code isn't discarded.
>>
>> It doesn't say "ignores the left argument completely"; in contrast, it
>> says that it "evaluates" it. It says that it "throws that value
>> away", "that value" being the return value of the evaluation. In
>>
>>>/^match/ and call_a_sub(foo), next;
>>
>> it still calls call_a_sub, and any global side effects from the sub
>> remain (opening or closing files, setting global variables,
>> whatever). The only thing discarded is the return value.
>
> It might be easier to understand this when knowing the implementation:
> Internally, a list is represented as an OP_LIST (corresponding with
> pp_list) whose arguments are the elements of the list (Except when the
> list is an argument list for another list operator. In this case, the
> OP_LIST/ pp_list is elided).
I don't know what OP_LIST and pp_list mean. I've googled and
nothing becomes clearer.
Justin.
--
Justin C, by the sea.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 11:28:06 +0000
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Syntax understanding problem
Message-Id: <6fjipa-jvd.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>
Quoth Justin C <justin.1303@purestblue.com>:
> On 2013-12-22, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote:
> >
> > It might be easier to understand this when knowing the implementation:
> > Internally, a list is represented as an OP_LIST (corresponding with
> > pp_list) whose arguments are the elements of the list (Except when the
> > list is an argument list for another list operator. In this case, the
> > OP_LIST/ pp_list is elided).
>
> I don't know what OP_LIST and pp_list mean. I've googled and
> nothing becomes clearer.
OP_LIST is the internal perl name for the operator which implements a
comma-separated list. pp_list is the function in the perl source which
implements this operator. Neither of these terms are likely to help you
understand anything, IMHO.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:53:10 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Subject: Re: Syntax understanding problem
Message-Id: <87r48pl1sp.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>
Justin C <justin.1303@purestblue.com> writes:
> On 2013-12-22, Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote:
[...]
>> It might be easier to understand this when knowing the implementation:
>> Internally, a list is represented as an OP_LIST (corresponding with
>> pp_list) whose arguments are the elements of the list (Except when the
>> list is an argument list for another list operator. In this case, the
>> OP_LIST/ pp_list is elided).
>
> I don't know what OP_LIST and pp_list mean. I've googled and
> nothing becomes clearer.
As Ben already wrote, these are terms from the Perl source code. The
second of the text was intended to be the more important part. A list as
it appears in some Perl source code,
/^something/ and $a = 1, $b = 2;
is translated to a function call,
/^something/ and list($a = 1, $b = 1);
list is an internal function which looks like this (except that it is
really implemented in C and manipulates the Perl stack directly)
sub list
{
return wantarray() ? @_ : $_[$#_];
}
IOW, the comma-separated terms in a 'free hand list' are really nothing
but comma-separated terms appearing in the argument list of a function
call and behave in the same way: They are all evaluated and produce a
value (if they produce a value, eg, a 'next' would cause a control
transfer instead) and the (internal) list function processes these
values (Sort of. It returns them unchanged in list context and returns
its last argument in scalar context).
------------------------------
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 4108
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