[32691] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3848 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Jun 3 14:55:57 2013
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 02:17:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 31 Dec 2012 Volume: 11 Number: 3848
Today's topics:
CGI Question <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: CGI Question <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: CGI Question <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: CGI Question <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: CGI Question <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Re: CGI Question <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: CGI Question <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: CGI Question <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: CGI Question <hansmu@xs4all.nl>
Re: CGI Question <troffasky@hotmail.com>
Re: CGI Question <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: CGI Question <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Re: CGI Question <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: CGI Question <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Re: CGI Question <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
plural and singular syntax in Perl5, PHP and Perl6 <hawk007@flight.us>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:55:31 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: CGI Question
Message-Id: <zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com>
Question: What type permissions should be assigned to different types of
CGI files and directories?
A Perl language CGI Internet Bulletin Board program is being
developed for use at one of my Web sites. And I am attempting to determine
how to structure the permissions on various files and directories so that
the Perl program will run and read a password file without either the Perl
program code or password file contents being visible to site visitors.
Any advice regarding that?
The Perl program bulletin board program will be in a directory called
"cgi"
Also in that directory will be the password file that will have a
.txt extension.
The bulletin board .html file and the .html posts submitted to the
bulletin board will be in a directory called "bbs"
What permissions should the password and Perl language files have?
For anyone interested, the Perl language program is being developed
using the Xampp program that makes it possible for a PC to look like an
Internet Server. So, when you open a .html file and press the SUBMIT button
the Xampp program will run the Perl CGI program as if it were on your real
Internet Server.
An older version of Xampp is being used. I have so far been unable
to get the newest version to run properly.
The older version is simpler and runs quite well on both XP and Vista
computers. Using it makes program development easier and faster and
probably keeps the Internet Server people happier because the CGI program
can be thoroughly debugged before it gets stored and run on the real
Internet Server.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:25:55 -0800 (PST)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <326771dc-4c82-4ae6-85f2-30208e1ef64d@googlegroups.com>
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:55:31 AM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
> Question: What type permissions should be assigned to different types of=
=20
> CGI files and directories?
Assuming that you use Apache and mod_perl, you can put all your CGI files i=
nto (sub)directory and configure Apache to send all files in that (sub)dir=
ectory to the running Perl process. As long as your scripts run withut erro=
rs, you won't have a problem as far as outside visibility. Once upon a time=
, I had a problem with the browser rendering Perl scripts as text, but that=
may have been because I either named the files with an extension other tha=
n'.cgi' or because I didn't have Apache configured properly, I really don't=
remember, but that's something that you will test and if it happens to you=
it can be corrected.
This isn't especially a matter of file permissions. If Apache can't read yo=
ur file, the you will get a permissions denied error and Apache won't serve=
up your CGI content.
When I say 'outside visibility' I mean as an HTTP request via a web client,=
some browser, over port 80. Obviously, anyone with console access to your =
server would be able to see all the files that were readable by him. For ex=
ample, I can telnet or ssh to my server and 'see' all my files. This is a d=
ifferent issue than accidently showing your Perl source in a browser.
CC.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:51:15 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <Ce-dnY05u5k-pkLNnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"ccc31807" <cartercc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:326771dc-4c82-4ae6-85f2-30208e1ef64d@googlegroups.com...
Thanks for the response and information.
There are several things that you mentioned that did not occur to me.
And I am going to give them a try.
Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an
index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that file
so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html file.
Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.
There are three octal numbers that are also associated with each
subdirectory and file. And I believe that there is a way to set them so
that only the original program can access a password file etc. I did not
try to set those codes initially. And I discovered that my practice
password file could be read by anyone.
So much for passwords.
Before posting that first note here I asked my Internet Server's
technical support people how to set those permissions. But they did not
have an immediate answer. That was a little surprising to me as they serve
as host for a tremendously large number of domains. And quite a few of
their server users undoubtedly have CGI programs running on their Web sites.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 12:10:51 -0800 (PST)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <ea8b462c-8566-4bda-a04f-0d1f18a5a88f@googlegroups.com>
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:51:15 PM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
> Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an>=20
> index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that fi=
le =20
> so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html fil=
e.>=20
> Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.
I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML files=
-- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI scripts. I invari=
ably use one directory for the HTML content (mostly ONE(!) HTML file,one or=
more CSS files, and perhaps varil\ous JS files, and another directory for =
the CGI files. I sometimes have other diretories with JPED and GIF files, a=
nd so on. I do't like to mix content types in the same directory.
> There are three octal numbers that are also associated with each =
=20
> subdirectory and file. And I believe that there is a way to set them so=
=20
Use chmod to change file permissions.
> Before posting that first note here I asked my Internet Server's =
=20
> technical support people how to set those permissions. But they did not=
=20
> have an immediate answer. That was a little surprising to me as they ser=
ve
I find this hard to believe. You should be able to chmod your own files.Rea=
d the man pages on chmod and umask. Also, read the Apache pages on CGi.
This can take a lot of effort to figure it out, but if you are persistent y=
ou should be able to reach proficiency after a while. You might want to sla=
p Linux on an old machine and use it as a test box I have a Pentium and a P=
entium Pro, one with only an 8G hard drive, that I run Linux, Apache, Perl,=
and PostgreSQL on, and you can really learn a lot by setting it all up.
You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00. A KVM =
switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow machine, hook =
it up with a KVM switch, and learn all you can.
CC.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 22:47:36 +0100
From: "Peter J. Holzer" <hjp-usenet2@hjp.at>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <slrnkdup7o.ue8.hjp-usenet2@hrunkner.hjp.at>
On 2012-12-29 20:10, ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 29, 2012 1:51:15 PM UTC-5, E.D.G. wrote:
>> Another option that I learned about a while back is to put an>
>> index.html file in each subdirectory. And you can set the code in that file
>> so that it redirects any subdirectory visitors back to the main .html file.>
>> Then they can't see the subdirectory contents.
>
> I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML
> files -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI
> scripts.
Why?
hp
--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | Fluch der elektronischen Textverarbeitung:
|_|_) | Sysadmin WSR | Man feilt solange an seinen Text um, bis
| | | hjp@hjp.at | die Satzbestandteile des Satzes nicht mehr
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | zusammenpaßt. -- Ralph Babel
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 20:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <da23be38-6f80-4b04-bf09-d244dc83bb4b@googlegroups.com>
On Saturday, December 29, 2012 4:47:36 PM UTC-5, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
> > I don't like that at all. If you use CGI, you shouldn't have any HTML=
=20
> > files -- all your HTML content should be generated by your CGI=20
> > scripts.=20
>=20
> Why?
There are probably more than four approaches to creating HTML, but I'll onl=
y mention four.
First, you can write HTML by hand using a text editor (vim, Notepad, and ot=
hers). The advantage is that it gives you exact control over your code. The=
disadvantages include the requirement of being fairly proficient at HTML, =
CSS, JavaScript, etc., and that you only get static pages.
As a sub-category, this is where i would put PHP, ColdFusion, ASP, JSP, and=
similar. To me the key to these is that the author embeds scriptlets in hi=
s HTML code, the intention being to free the author from knowing anything a=
bout programming. To me, embedding scriptlets in HTML is pretty close to ha=
nd writing HTML in the first place, which is why I put it here.
Second, you can use something like Dreamweaver, or even (horrors!!!) Word, =
to create your pages. The advantage is that you don't need to know a lot ab=
out the languages. The disadvantages include giving up control over your co=
de and only creating static pages.
Third, you can use a CMS or templating system or a framework. I've never do=
ne this so I don't know the advantages or disadvantages.
Fourth, you can create your HTML pages dynamically, with Perl, Python, Ruby=
, Java, all the way up to using C, Common Lisp, or something else. The mind=
set of this is that the author (programmer) writes code that outputs HTML. =
You still need to know HTML and in addition you need to know a programming =
language. The great (overwhelming) advantage is that you have all the power=
of the programming language at your disposal. The difference between this =
and the first three is the difference between building your products one pi=
ece at a time, and building a factory that can automate the building of you=
r products.
I started by writing HTML by hand. Then, I learned that you could use Perl =
to automate the tasks. I try my best to write in the functional style and w=
rite some pretty crude DSLs to help (e.g., a SQL.pm, an HTML.pm, a CONSOLE.=
pm, etc.) so my 'main' functions is just a series of function calls based o=
n the query parameters passed on in the HTTP request.
It's actually quite easy in that you can build a very large website with no=
t much code, and it turns out easy to maintain. This is how I imaging Amazo=
n, eBay, and others do it. They OBVIOUSLY don't have a large team of author=
s hand coding each individual page that any user could conceivably request.
In short, I like the idea of building a factory to spit out HTML rather tha=
n handcrafting each HTML page individually.
CC.
----------rough example-----------
#! perl
use warnings;
use strict;
use CGI;
use HTML; #custom pm
my @query_params =3D param('query_params');
print "Content-type: text/html\n\n";
HTML:print_header(@query_params);
HTML:print_menu(@query_params); #top nav bar
HTML;print_content(@query_params);
HTML:print_menu(@query_params); #bottom nav bar
HTML:print_footer(@query_params);
exit(0);
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 11:35:12 -0500
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <87mwwv33cv.fsf@new.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "cc" == ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com> writes:
cc> There are probably more than four approaches to creating HTML,
cc> but I'll only mention four.
2000 called: it wanted to point out that the important one you omitted
is using a web application framework with a solid templating system, so
that you put your logic in one place and your presentation in another.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 11:32:18 -0500
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <87txr333hp.fsf@new.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
EDG> A Perl language CGI Internet Bulletin Board program is
EDG> being developed for use at one of my Web sites.
Given your history of difficulty with programming, if the goal is to
have a bulletin board, you will most likely produce better results with
less effort and with less outside support required if you install one of
the freely-available open-source bulletin boards.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:46:19 +0100
From: Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <50e0b62b$0$6877$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl>
On 29/12/12 21:10:51, ccc31807 wrote:
> This can take a lot of effort to figure it out, but if you are
> persistent you should be able to reach proficiency after a while.
> You might want to slap Linux on an old machine and use it as a test
> box I have a Pentium and a Pentium Pro, one with only an 8G hard
> drive, that I run Linux, Apache, Perl, and PostgreSQL on, and you
> can really learn a lot by setting it all up.
+1
> You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00.
> A KVM switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow
> machine, hook it up with a KVM switch, and learn all you can.
Don't bother with a KVM switch : you won't need it. Use a keyboard and
a monitor from another machine while your installing Linux. Once you
can access it via ssh, detach the keyboard and monitor, and do the rest
remotely. That is, after all, what you're trying to teach yourself.
Hope this helps,
-- HansM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 21:46:38 +0000
From: alexd <troffasky@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <kbqcnu$q3$2@dont-email.me>
ccc31807 (for it is he) wrote:
> You can probably pick up an old machine for free, or at most $50.00. A KVM
> switch will cost you $50.00 tops. Get someone's old and slow machine,
Another way of achieving the same goal [especially the bit about the slow
machine] would be to run a VM with LAMP on it as a guest. You can even
download one that's ready-installed:
http://www.turnkeylinux.org/lampstack
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
21:44:02 up 14 days, 16 min, 5 users, load average: 0.63, 0.60, 0.65
Qua illic est reprehendit, illic est a vindicatum
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:27:18 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <YPKdnY8xdtNeIn3NnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
news:87txr333hp.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
> less effort and with less outside support required if you install one of
> the freely-available open-source bulletin boards.
Thanks for the response.
The 1996 era WWWBoard Perl language bulletin board CGI program
created by by Matt Wright is being used to develop this bulletin board.
It is relatively simple to use and new features can be added to it
fairly easily by someone who can do intermediate level Perl programming.
Additionally, I have the Xampp program running on my PC with Windows.
And that makes it possible to add features to the Perl language CGI program
and test those additions to see if they produce the desired result before
the program gets copied to the Internet Server.
SeaMonkey is also being used to rapidly generate and alter simple
HTML code pages. Then additional specialized code can be easily added to
those pages by hand.
My Internet Server makes it easy to change the three octal digit
numbers that control program and files access. The Perl language CGI
bulletin board program is already running quite nicely on my PC. And I am
in the process of trying to determine how to set all of the permission
numbers of the password files etc. so that everything will work properly on
the Internet Server computer. That effort should be completed early this
week.
Professional programmers probably learn how set permissions like that
and many other things during their training. But people doing that on their
own have to develop those skills by trial and error or ask other people. It
should actually be quite simple. And once the process is understood the
same set of parameters can be used again and again.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 16:37:15 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <cqGdndR6vJmEX33NnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:zN6dneyLzP8dvULNnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Question: What type permissions should be assigned to different types of
> CGI files and directories?
Thanks for all of the responses.
If and when this specific matter gets settled I plan to try to post a
note here stating what parameters were finally used. That will probably
take a week or so.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 15:05:27 -0800 (PST)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <cf70c882-9442-490c-ae86-794f210f59a6@googlegroups.com>
On Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:35:12 AM UTC-5, Charlton Wilbur wrote:
> 2000 called: it wanted to point out that the important one you omitted
> is using a web application framework with a solid templating system, so
> that you put your logic in one place and your presentation in another.
You must have missed this:
"Third, you can use a CMS or templating system or a framework. I've never done this so I don't know the advantages or disadvantages."
I tried, got frustrated because it did what I did not want and didn't do what I wanted, so I wrote my own.
CC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 00:43:39 -0500
From: Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <87ip7i3hf8.fsf@new.chromatico.net>
>>>>> "EDG" == E D G <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com> writes:
EDG> The 1996 era WWWBoard Perl language bulletin board CGI
EDG> program created by by Matt Wright is being used to develop this
EDG> bulletin board.
You have chosen a software package that was an extremely poor choice in
1996, due to Matt Wright's level of incompetence or carelessness in
writing Perl, and which has not become a better choice in the
intervening years.
Perhaps I misspoke: you will produce better results with less effort and
with less outside support required if you install one of the decent
freely-available open-source bulletin boards that has seen ongoing
development in the past year.
Charlton
--
Charlton Wilbur
cwilbur@chromatico.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 03:00:36 -0600
From: "E.D.G." <edgrsprj@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CGI Question
Message-Id: <LKqdnalFcdeyyXzNnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
news:87ip7i3hf8.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
> Perhaps I misspoke: you will produce better results with less effort and
> with less outside support required if you install one of the decent
> freely-available open-source bulletin boards that has seen ongoing
> development in the past year.
Again, thanks for the comment.
I fully agree that there are numerous sophisticated bulletin boards programs
available. But I wanted a Perl language bulletin board program to get
started with that will work with the Xampp CGI program development program
so that highly specialized features could be added. And WWWBoard is a
relatively simple Perl program.
I tried using Movable Type quite a while ago but could not get it to run
with the Xampp program. It probably does. But there appeared to be too
many adjustments that needed to be made. So I went with much simpler
WWWBoard program to get things started. And even that required a fair
amount of effort to get it run with Xampp. But the effort was worth it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2012 17:43:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew <hawk007@flight.us>
Subject: plural and singular syntax in Perl5, PHP and Perl6
Message-Id: <da613372-2ed3-40fe-90db-c90352a4b872@googlegroups.com>
Hi, fellow perlers
Before posting this I spent some time googling the web at large as well as =
searching this group's archive for posts related to the idea I wish to expr=
ess, and, on cursory search, have not found any post, to date, which expres=
ses the following -- assertively and emphatically. Yet, I feel (I compute)=
, it DOES need to be said, emphatically:
I absolutely, unequivocally LOVE, support and herald (as in, "Hats off to L=
arry Wall's genius") the syntactical distinction Perl5 (and older) makes be=
tween SINGULARITY and MULTIPLICITY. Syntactically, per se. In other words=
, EXPLICITLY, by means of two distinct symbols ("$" and "@"). The addition=
al syntax that deals with the INTERPLAY between singular and multiple is eq=
ually brilliant:
$array[3]
@array[3,4,5]
(the pre-pended symbols instantly signal (to the human reader) whether we a=
re dealing with a multiplicity version of 'array' or just one of its elemen=
ts (which is a scalar))
The brilliant play with "@" (plural) and "$" (singular) continues (in terms=
of language design), with:
@array[@cherry_picked_indexes]
and then, the whopper:
@hash{@list_of_keys} or @hash{qw(yada dooba boom}}
and then the enormously convenient (and code-economical) flexibility of nes=
ting all of the above in a gazillion ways:
@hash{@{$two_dimensional[3]}}
@hash_one{keys %hash_two}
etc, etc, etc!
-----------------
So, the converse of my exuberance over this syntactical excellence of Perl5=
(as I assess it to be) is my complete bewilderment and puzzlement (putting=
it mildly) over PHP's LACK of such distinction (syntactically) between sin=
gularity and multiplicity.
in PHP,=20
$this_could_be_a_scalar
and
$this_could_be_an_array
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in PHP I am left guessing, by cont=
ext, whether I'm looking at a scalar or an array.
So, I can only bash my head against the wall (note: LOWER-case "wall"), ove=
r the notion that not only does PHP's shortcoming (the lack of such succinc=
t syntactical acrobatics as I've tried to suggest above, with the nested ar=
rays and hashes in Perl) has gone COMPLETELY unnoticed (ignored/forgiven/ev=
en embraced as solid standard!?), I have learned (again, please correct me =
if I am wrong) that Perl itself (!!!) -- in its new and radically revised V=
ERSION 6, is tossing out this baby with the bath water -- this gem of a syn=
tax, obliterating the "$" versus "@" distinction, and (as I would put it) i=
s descending to the painfully banal and ambiguous "$" for both scalars and =
arrays (?!) (that we observe in PHP)
I would also like to add that "singular versus plural" (one versus many) is=
unequivocally a FUNDAMENTAL dichotomy, NOT JUST in computer programming, b=
ut in human (natural) language and human psychology and logical processing/=
thinking. (Perhaps on a par with "zero versus one", or "existing versus n=
on-existing", etc., but just as fundamental)
The syntactical differentiation has given us clarity and absence of ambigui=
ty.
So there, I've said it. I hope it did NOT come across as a rant, but more =
as a rallying cry... at least a rallying to acknowledge the value of the "$=
" and "@" syntax and the fact that losing it would mean losing a whole lot =
of clever, succinct, and quintessentially Perl coding freedom and flexibili=
ty.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3848
***************************************
