[32626] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3901 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Mar 14 16:09:21 2013
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:09:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 14 Mar 2013 Volume: 11 Number: 3901
Today's topics:
Re: bytes, English, and prototypes <oneingray@gmail.com>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <cal@example.invalid>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <cal@example.invalid>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <cal@example.invalid>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <swisscheese@cfl.rr.com>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other <noonehome@chalupasworld.com>
Re: message forwarding in perl <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Re: message forwarding in perl <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Re: prototypes? <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Re: prototypes? <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: prototypes? <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:33:22 +0000
From: Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bytes, English, and prototypes
Message-Id: <87vc8tkc8t.fsf@violet.siamics.net>
>>>>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>>>>> Quoth Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com>:
>>>>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>>>>> Quoth Ivan Shmakov <oneingray@gmail.com>:
>>> You should not use 'bytes'. It doesn't ever do anything useful and
>>> sometimes lets you look at parts of the perl internals you
>>> shouldn't be looking at.
>> Indeed, I've read the documentation. It was my understanding that,
>> in the nutshell, the "bytes" pragma makes Perl operate strictly on
>> octet sequences for its strings, instead of allowing either strings
>> of octets /or/ strings of Unicode characters.
> That was the original idea, in the 5.6 days, but it never worked like
> that in practice because it turns out to be basically impossible to
> prevent character strings from leaking in to your 'use bytes'
> sections.
> If you don't want strings containing characters above 0xff, don't
> create them. 'bytes' doesn't gain you anything in that case.
ACK. I've got three more questions, however:
* how do I ensure that a value passed to my function is an octet
sequence? (IOW, doesn't contain a code over \xFF);
* how do I ensure that a non-ASCII octet is never considered to
be a member of, say, the [[:alpha:]] set? as in the following
code (although, perhaps, of questionable value):
use common::sense;
$_
= pack ("H*", "23456789abcdef");
s/[[:alpha:]]/\xFF/g;
print (unpack ("H*", $_), "\n");
## => 23ffff89abffff ; thus, it assumes \xCD, \xEF to be alphabetical;
* is the "It breaks encapsulation" comment in bytes(3perl)
really justified? if the function in question was designed to
operate on octet sequences, and not character strings, then
it's an error for the caller to supply it a character string
in the first place.
[...]
>>>> use English;
>>> You should not use English, it makes your code harder to read for
>>> anyone who knows Perl, and teaches you bad habits.
>> ? I may be having a bit too much Lisp background, but I've always
>> considered something_that_one_can_read to be a way better identifier
>> for a global than, say, ~.
> That can be argued both ways (the magic punctuation variables stand
> out more, by virtue of being different, than any alphanumeric name)
Given the amount of punctuation typically found in Perl code,
I'd say that it'd be a very weak argument. Rather, I'd expect
such a construct to completely fall out of one's vision,
/thanks/ to it being composed entirely of punctuation.
> but either way it doesn't really matter: what matters is that
> consistency is more important than correctness when it comes to
> spelling, and in Perl errno is spelled $!.
[...]
> These habits are not inherently bad: had 'English' been the default
> from the start we might in some sense be better off. They are only
> bad because they make your code unintelligible to others, and others'
> code to you.
Whatever is the language, it gets divided as long as it lives.
There're stylistic choices one has to stick to, and (unless I'm
tweaking someone's else code) my choice is to use English.
Why, we may just as well argue about the number of spaces used
to indent nested code blocks! (Or should these be ASCII HT's?)
Or about the use of DocBook for documentation vs. POD.
I've seen "solutions" to this kind of "problem," such as those
implemented by the designers of Python and Go. And the only
thing that comes to my mind is the old saying (paraphrased):
"If programmers are so smart, why aren't they walking in
formation?"
[...]
>> Is there a practical reason to forgo the compile-time arguments'
>> type checking they offer?
> They do more than that: they change the context of the parameters to
> the call, which is (usually) entirely unexpected:
> sub foo (;$$) { say $_[0], $_[1]; }
> my @x = ("a", "b");
> foo(@x);
Impressive! (Although I've had to "use feature qw (say);".)
[...]
>> For me, code that fails to compile is better than code that suddenly
>> dies after running for hours. (Which is still better than the code
>> that dies at the wrong place; or doesn't die, but silently gives a
>> wrong result.)
> I agree, actually, and a general form of compile-time argument
> checking would be nice; but Perl 5 prototypes aren't it.
ACK, thanks!
--
FSF associate member #7257
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 02:16:53 -0700
From: Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <beudnRE9qJkZCNzMnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@supernews.com>
On 03/07/2013 06:33 AM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>
> Quoth swisscheese@cfl.rr.com:
>> On 03/07/2013 01:53 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>>>
>>> Struggling.
>>>
>>> $ php-config --libs
>>> No command 'php-config' found, did you mean:
>>> Command 'pdp-config' from package 'pd-pdp' (universe)
>>> Command 'php-config5' from package 'php5-dev' (main)
>>> php-config: command not found
>>> $
>>
>> Try php-config5 as php-config is a link to php-config5. Here they
>> both reside in /usr/bin. If you are missing php-config link (it appears
>> so) then create it.
>
> Installing the php-dev package should have created this link:
> http://xrl.us/bomxwq .
>
> Ben
>
I can't tell what precisely is holding me back now. I do, for an
absolute fact, know that it is not due to a lack of OP spending time
trying to figure this stuff out as best he can.
$ cat phpini.sh
1 #!/bin/sh
2
3 set -e
4
5 #DEBHELPER#
6
7 if [ "$1" != "configure" ]; then
8 exit 0
9 fi
10
11 for i in php-config phpize; do
12 update-alternatives \
13 --install /usr/bin/"$i" $i /usr/bin/"$i"5 50 \
14 --slave /usr/share/man/man1/"$i".1.gz "$i".1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/"$i"5.1.gz
15 done
16
17 exit 0
$ ./reg2.pl
1 #!/bin/sh
2
...
This primitive script is what I have for reg2.pl:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use strict;
use 5.010;
use File::Slurp;
my $in = 'phpini.sh';
my $out = 'php1.sh';
my @lines = read_file($in);
open( my $fh, ">", $out) or die $! ;
foreach (@lines) {
print $_ . "\n";
s/^\s+//;
s/^\d+//;
s/^\s+//;
print $fh $_;
}
close $fh;
...
$ cat php1.sh
#!/bin/sh
set -e
#DEBHELPER#
if [ "$1" != "configure" ]; then
exit 0
fi
for i in php-config phpize; do
update-alternatives \
--install /usr/bin/"$i" $i /usr/bin/"$i"5 50 \
--slave /usr/share/man/man1/"$i".1.gz "$i".1.gz
/usr/share/man/man1/"$i"5.1.gz
done
exit 0
$
...
$ ./php1.sh configure
update-alternatives: error: alternative path /usr/bin/php-config5
doesn't exist.
$
...
That has to say something there, doesn't it?
--
Cal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:28:08 -0700
From: Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <xpGdnU52KfSrO9zMnZ2dnUVZ_qWdnZ2d@supernews.com>
On 03/07/2013 03:28 AM, SwissCheese wrote:
> On 03/07/2013 01:53 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>> On 03/05/2013 02:06 PM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>
>>> Quoth Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>:
>>>> [x-posted to clp.misc]
>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> This article has me convinced that I want perl and php able to deal
>>>> with
>>>> each other:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9282?page=0,1
>>>
>>> Why on Earth would you want to do that? Seriously, I can't think of any
>>> situation where mixing PHP and Perl is easier than just writing in Perl
>>> in the first place.
>>>
>>> Note that the Perl in that article (or at least, the first page, which
>>> was all I read) is pretty bad:
>>>
>>> - use of global filehandles, unnecessary since 2000,
>>> - use of Thread.pm, deprecated since 2002,
>>> - use of threads at all for such a trivial problem,
>>> - using rindex and substr rather than pattern matching,
>>> - using backticks instead of system(),
>>> - using PHP to talk to a database, when Perl's DBI module is
>>> considerably better than PHP's rather random database functions.
>>>
>>> I don't know PHP well enough to comment on it, but I wouldn't be
>>> surprised if the PHP code was just as bad (for instance, I understand
>>> PHP has a saner database interface these days; I don't know if it
>>> existed in 2007, though).
>>>
>>>> so far so good, and then this thing which I've seen in the literature:
>>>>
>>>> using php_config 'php-config'
>>>> Can't exec "php-config": No such file or directory at Makefile.PL
>>>> line 55.
>>>> Failed to find the 'php-config' executable. Make sure you have PHP and
>>>> PHP sources installed, and that 'php-config' is in PATH. at Makefile.PL
>>>> line 55.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> bla bla bla do not pass Go. Right now I have a default installation.
>>>>
>>>> Simple question: What types of things can I get configured with
>>>> php-config? envelope data available? ftp data?
>>>
>>> php-config is a program installed with php, which tells other programs
>>> how php was installed. For instance, on my system
>>>
>>> ~% php-config --libs
>>> -lcrypt -lcrypt -lpcre -lm -lxml2 -lz -liconv -lm -lcrypt -lcrypt
>>> ~% php-config --includes
>>> -I/usr/local/include/php -I/usr/local/include/php/main
>>> -I/usr/local/include/php/TSRM -I/usr/local/include/php/Zend
>>> -I/usr/local/include/php/ext -I/usr/local/include/php/ext/date/lib
>>> ~%
>>>
>>> and so on. If you've installed php properly (including any required
>>> development packages, if you're using a package system), you should have
>>> a php-config executable somewhere. Make sure it's in your PATH before
>>> running Makefile.PL.
>>
>> Struggling.
>>
>> $ php-config --libs
>> No command 'php-config' found, did you mean:
>> Command 'pdp-config' from package 'pd-pdp' (universe)
>> Command 'php-config5' from package 'php5-dev' (main)
>> php-config: command not found
>> $
>
> Try php-config5 as php-config is a link to php-config5. Here they
> both reside in /usr/bin. If you are missing php-config link (it appears
> so) then create it.
>
swiss,
Can you elaborate?
--
Cal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 03:41:34 -0700
From: Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <r_Odna1OFYHDNNzMnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com>
On 03/07/2013 05:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 3/7/2013 3:52 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>> On 03/06/2013 10:57 PM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>
>>> Quoth Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>:
>>>>
>>>> I've chosen this rather arbitrary task just to see what I can do with
>>>> this syntax which is new to me, php, as opposed to what a person can do
>>>> with, perl, which I have previously used to give me a webpage.
>>>
>>> Cal, please, try to learn one language properly before wildly
>>> introducing more languages to the equation. It *really* isn't going to
>>> help.
>>
>> Help what? Are you certain that it's completely impossible that a file
>> could go missing from me that I would need to do this, and that there
>> would be every reason in this fascist world world to keep me from
>> getting a decent web capability?
>>
>
> There are hundreds of millions of web sites which have "decent web
> capabilities" but don't try to mix languages. I agree with Ben - learn
> one language first.
>
> And if you want help, I *highly* suggest you change your attitude.
> Calling people facists does not endear ANYONE.
People like me just fine. Fuck off.
--
Cal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 06:51:44 -0400
From: SwissCheese <swisscheese@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <khsa0r$3p1$1@dont-email.me>
On 03/14/2013 06:28 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
> On 03/07/2013 03:28 AM, SwissCheese wrote:
>> On 03/07/2013 01:53 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>>> On 03/05/2013 02:06 PM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quoth Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>:
>>>>> [x-posted to clp.misc]
>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> This article has me convinced that I want perl and php able to deal
>>>>> with
>>>>> each other:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9282?page=0,1
>>>>
>>>> Why on Earth would you want to do that? Seriously, I can't think of any
>>>> situation where mixing PHP and Perl is easier than just writing in Perl
>>>> in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> Note that the Perl in that article (or at least, the first page, which
>>>> was all I read) is pretty bad:
>>>>
>>>> - use of global filehandles, unnecessary since 2000,
>>>> - use of Thread.pm, deprecated since 2002,
>>>> - use of threads at all for such a trivial problem,
>>>> - using rindex and substr rather than pattern matching,
>>>> - using backticks instead of system(),
>>>> - using PHP to talk to a database, when Perl's DBI module is
>>>> considerably better than PHP's rather random database functions.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know PHP well enough to comment on it, but I wouldn't be
>>>> surprised if the PHP code was just as bad (for instance, I understand
>>>> PHP has a saner database interface these days; I don't know if it
>>>> existed in 2007, though).
>>>>
>>>>> so far so good, and then this thing which I've seen in the literature:
>>>>>
>>>>> using php_config 'php-config'
>>>>> Can't exec "php-config": No such file or directory at Makefile.PL
>>>>> line 55.
>>>>> Failed to find the 'php-config' executable. Make sure you have PHP and
>>>>> PHP sources installed, and that 'php-config' is in PATH. at
>>>>> Makefile.PL
>>>>> line 55.
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> bla bla bla do not pass Go. Right now I have a default installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simple question: What types of things can I get configured with
>>>>> php-config? envelope data available? ftp data?
>>>>
>>>> php-config is a program installed with php, which tells other programs
>>>> how php was installed. For instance, on my system
>>>>
>>>> ~% php-config --libs
>>>> -lcrypt -lcrypt -lpcre -lm -lxml2 -lz -liconv -lm -lcrypt -lcrypt
>>>> ~% php-config --includes
>>>> -I/usr/local/include/php -I/usr/local/include/php/main
>>>> -I/usr/local/include/php/TSRM -I/usr/local/include/php/Zend
>>>> -I/usr/local/include/php/ext -I/usr/local/include/php/ext/date/lib
>>>> ~%
>>>>
>>>> and so on. If you've installed php properly (including any required
>>>> development packages, if you're using a package system), you should
>>>> have
>>>> a php-config executable somewhere. Make sure it's in your PATH before
>>>> running Makefile.PL.
>>>
>>> Struggling.
>>>
>>> $ php-config --libs
>>> No command 'php-config' found, did you mean:
>>> Command 'pdp-config' from package 'pd-pdp' (universe)
>>> Command 'php-config5' from package 'php5-dev' (main)
>>> php-config: command not found
>>> $
>>
>> Try php-config5 as php-config is a link to php-config5. Here they
>> both reside in /usr/bin. If you are missing php-config link (it appears
>> so) then create it.
>>
>
> swiss,
>
> Can you elaborate?
The file 'php-config' is a pointer (hard/soft link) to 'php-config5'.
Running 'php-config' actually runs 'php-config5'. Run the command:
man ln
...to read up on how to use them. At worst you could just make a copy of
'php-config5' and rename it 'php-config' but I would have to say
creating the link is the proper thing to do.
--
Norman
Registered Linux user #461062
-Have you been to www.php.net yet?-
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:14:22 +0000
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <khsbee$t4h$2@news.albasani.net>
On 14/03/13 10:41, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
> On 03/07/2013 05:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 3/7/2013 3:52 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>>> On 03/06/2013 10:57 PM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quoth Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've chosen this rather arbitrary task just to see what I can do with
>>>>> this syntax which is new to me, php, as opposed to what a person
>>>>> can do
>>>>> with, perl, which I have previously used to give me a webpage.
>>>>
>>>> Cal, please, try to learn one language properly before wildly
>>>> introducing more languages to the equation. It *really* isn't going to
>>>> help.
>>>
>>> Help what? Are you certain that it's completely impossible that a file
>>> could go missing from me that I would need to do this, and that there
>>> would be every reason in this fascist world world to keep me from
>>> getting a decent web capability?
>>>
>>
>> There are hundreds of millions of web sites which have "decent web
>> capabilities" but don't try to mix languages. I agree with Ben - learn
>> one language first.
>>
>> And if you want help, I *highly* suggest you change your attitude.
>> Calling people facists does not endear ANYONE.
>
> People like me just fine. Fuck off.
For a quiet life, just killfile jerry.
Unless you are a humble and very ignorant noob, he has nothing to teach
you. Worse a lot of what he says is plain wrong.
--
Ineptocracy
(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 04:18:16 -0700
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <aec3k8dbkg6sueak0h2pcoftfl0ts6oh1n@4ax.com>
Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid> wrote:
>On 03/07/2013 05:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
[...]
>>>> Cal, please, try to learn one language properly before wildly
>>>> introducing more languages to the equation. It *really* isn't going to
>>>> help.
>>>
>>> Help what? Are you certain that it's completely impossible that a file
>>> could go missing from me that I would need to do this, and that there
>>> would be every reason in this fascist world world to keep me from
>>> getting a decent web capability?
>>>
>>
>> There are hundreds of millions of web sites which have "decent web
>> capabilities" but don't try to mix languages. I agree with Ben - learn
>> one language first.
>>
>> And if you want help, I *highly* suggest you change your attitude.
>> Calling people facists does not endear ANYONE.
>
>People like me just fine. Fuck off.
Your wish is my command: ***PLONK***
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:06:14 -0400
From: Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <khsecn$ol2$2@dont-email.me>
On 3/14/2013 7:14 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 14/03/13 10:41, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>> On 03/07/2013 05:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 3/7/2013 3:52 AM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:
>>>> On 03/06/2013 10:57 PM, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Quoth Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've chosen this rather arbitrary task just to see what I can do with
>>>>>> this syntax which is new to me, php, as opposed to what a person
>>>>>> can do
>>>>>> with, perl, which I have previously used to give me a webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cal, please, try to learn one language properly before wildly
>>>>> introducing more languages to the equation. It *really* isn't going to
>>>>> help.
>>>>
>>>> Help what? Are you certain that it's completely impossible that a file
>>>> could go missing from me that I would need to do this, and that there
>>>> would be every reason in this fascist world world to keep me from
>>>> getting a decent web capability?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are hundreds of millions of web sites which have "decent web
>>> capabilities" but don't try to mix languages. I agree with Ben - learn
>>> one language first.
>>>
>>> And if you want help, I *highly* suggest you change your attitude.
>>> Calling people facists does not endear ANYONE.
>>
>> People like me just fine. Fuck off.
>
> For a quiet life, just killfile jerry.
>
> Unless you are a humble and very ignorant noob, he has nothing to teach
> you. Worse a lot of what he says is plain wrong.
>
>
>
Ah, yes, the troll has to have his say. We already know you're neither
the programmer nor the electrical engineer you claim to be. No wonder
you post under a 'nym. You don't want people to know you're an out of
work ditch digger who can't figure out which end of the shovel to use.
If I was as stoopid as you, I'd be ashamed to use my real name, also.
--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 05:38:03 -0700
From: Scott Johnson <noonehome@chalupasworld.com>
Subject: Re: getting perl and php to talk to each other
Message-Id: <khsg88$1nb$1@dont-email.me>
On 3/14/2013 4:18 AM, Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Cal Dershowitz <cal@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 03/07/2013 05:17 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> [...]
>>>>> Cal, please, try to learn one language properly before wildly
>>>>> introducing more languages to the equation. It *really* isn't going to
>>>>> help.
>>>>
>>>> Help what? Are you certain that it's completely impossible that a file
>>>> could go missing from me that I would need to do this, and that there
>>>> would be every reason in this fascist world world to keep me from
>>>> getting a decent web capability?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There are hundreds of millions of web sites which have "decent web
>>> capabilities" but don't try to mix languages. I agree with Ben - learn
>>> one language first.
>>>
>>> And if you want help, I *highly* suggest you change your attitude.
>>> Calling people facists does not endear ANYONE.
>>
>> People like me just fine. Fuck off.
>
> Your wish is my command: ***PLONK***
>
> jue
>
Ditto
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:30:12 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: message forwarding in perl
Message-Id: <87obemf9kb.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>> Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> writes:
>> > Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>> >
>> >> Once you stopped accusing anyone you disagree with of fascism
>> >
>> > This is actually another classic, namely, the 'Have you stopped
>> > beating your wife' question.
>>
>> Absolutely last attempt at turning this back into a rational
>> discussion: Would you perhaps have the unbelievable kindness to stop
>> ventilating your totally unsubstantiated assumptions about me?
>
> If you will do likewise. I am referring here to
>
> I usually undestand this as code language for 'it is different from
> $something I happen to be familiar with AND I ABSOLUTELY HATE THAT
> !!!!1', glossed over with pseudo-rationalization constructed in the
> usual, hackneyed way' ('the usual way' being 'emphasizing the
> disadvantages of the undesired something while ignoring the
> advantages, vice versa for the preferred something' and resorting to
> character assassination in order to discredit people who don't agree
> with this opinion).
>
> and other comments of that nature.
I have no idea what 'other comments of this nature' could possibly
be and what your precise problem with this text actually is. It
certainly doesn't contain anything specifically targetted at you but
some general observations about the ways people behave.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:44:07 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: message forwarding in perl
Message-Id: <87fvzyf8x4.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> writes:
> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>> Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>>> Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com> writes:
>>> > Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>>> >
>>> >> Once you stopped accusing anyone you disagree with of fascism
>>> >
>>> > This is actually another classic, namely, the 'Have you stopped
>>> > beating your wife' question.
>>>
>>> Absolutely last attempt at turning this back into a rational
>>> discussion: Would you perhaps have the unbelievable kindness to stop
>>> ventilating your totally unsubstantiated assumptions about me?
>>
>> If you will do likewise. I am referring here to
>>
>> I usually undestand this as code language for 'it is different from
>> $something I happen to be familiar with AND I ABSOLUTELY HATE THAT
>> !!!!1', glossed over with pseudo-rationalization constructed in the
>> usual, hackneyed way' ('the usual way' being 'emphasizing the
>> disadvantages of the undesired something while ignoring the
>> advantages, vice versa for the preferred something' and resorting to
>> character assassination in order to discredit people who don't agree
>> with this opinion).
>>
>> and other comments of that nature.
>
> I have no idea what
Emphasis: This is supposed to mean that I have really no idea, not
some other 'weird' interpretation which might suggest itself. I
usually talk to computers because they're 'reasonably' simple and
predictable while I avoid most people because they confuse me, I have
no real idea how to deal with them and usually, dealing with them
isn't necessary.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:36:04 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: prototypes?
Message-Id: <87k3paf9aj.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>> > Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>> >>
>> >> OTOH, this is decidedly not the opinion of the people who removed the
>> >> "if it looks like a function, it will work like a function" statement
>> >> from the Perl documentation
>> >
>> > ~/src/perl/perl/pod% ack 'like a function'
> [...]
>> > perlfunc.pod
>> > 34:surprising rule is this: It I<looks> like a function, therefore
> [...]
>>
>> Some more reference to 'clean up', I guess ...
>
> (Oh, for God's sake...)
>
> This section of perlfunc
>
> If you use parentheses, the simple but occasionally surprising rule
> is this: It I<looks> like a function, therefore it I<is> a function,
> and precedence doesn't matter. Otherwise it's a list operator or
> unary operator, and precedence does matter.
>
> is the original source of that phrasing of the rule, and has been there
> unchanged
So, why didn't you just point out that I was wrong and quoted the
passage in question? I searched for this a while ago, after stumbling
over all kinds of other 'strange modifications' of texts I remembered,
ultimatively triggered by the descision to remove the various 'OO
tutorial texts' from the Perl distribution in favor of strongly
suggesting that no one should want to learn about Perl OO, that
people who use it are not exactly sane (something like 'You can find
the reference documentation in ..., in case you have to maintain code
written in this style') and that everybody should just download this
or that (or maybe another) CPAN module and didn't find
it. Consequently, I assumed that it had been removed because of
'political incorrectness' as well.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:12:18 +0000
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: prototypes?
Message-Id: <i1k91a-eva2.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>
Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>
> So, why didn't you just point out that I was wrong and quoted the
> passage in question?
I did. You just didn't understand.
> I searched for this a while ago, after stumbling
> over all kinds of other 'strange modifications' of texts I remembered,
> ultimatively triggered by the descision to remove the various 'OO
> tutorial texts' from the Perl distribution in favor of strongly
> suggesting that no one should want to learn about Perl OO, that
> people who use it are not exactly sane (something like 'You can find
> the reference documentation in ..., in case you have to maintain code
> written in this style') and that everybody should just download this
> or that (or maybe another) CPAN module and didn't find
> it. Consequently, I assumed that it had been removed because of
> 'political incorrectness' as well.
Again, this is manifest nonsense: nothing has been removed. The Perl OO
tutorials are perltoot, by Tom Christiansen, which has been there since
5004; perlboot, which assumes less general OO knowledge on the part of
the reader, and has been there since 5.6; and perlootut, which was new
in 5.16, and does indeed recommend several CPAN class-building systems.
All are still present in bleadperl.
Please stop spreading falsehoods without making at least a cursory
attempt to check your facts.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:29:55 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: prototypes?
Message-Id: <87wqt97pak.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>:
>>
>> So, why didn't you just point out that I was wrong and quoted the
>> passage in question?
>
> I did. You just didn't understand.
Originally, you didn't. You posted the results of searching for some
string in a number of perl documentation files. The result was a
couple of half sentences coming from various files, among them being
the perl56delta and perl561delta texts whose relevance for current
versions of Perl is zero.
>> I searched for this a while ago, after stumbling
>> over all kinds of other 'strange modifications' of texts I remembered,
>> ultimatively triggered by the descision to remove the various 'OO
>> tutorial texts' from the Perl distribution in favor of strongly
>> suggesting that no one should want to learn about Perl OO, that
>> people who use it are not exactly sane (something like 'You can find
>> the reference documentation in ..., in case you have to maintain code
>> written in this style') and that everybody should just download this
>> or that (or maybe another) CPAN module and didn't find
>> it. Consequently, I assumed that it had been removed because of
>> 'political incorrectness' as well.
>
> Again, this is manifest nonsense: nothing has been removed.
This is, as a already posted here some time ago, what the perl 5.16.0
changes document has been claiming since 2012, the corresponding text
is
Removed Documentation
Old OO Documentation
The old OO tutorials, perltoot, perltooc, and perlboot, have
been removed. The perlbot (bag of object tricks) document has
been removed as well.
The online version is available here:
http://perldoc.perl.org/5.16.1/perl5160delta.html#Removed-Documentation
[...]
> Please stop spreading falsehoods without making at least a cursory
> attempt to check your facts.
Dito.
------------------------------
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3901
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