[32424] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3691 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed May 16 11:09:40 2012
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 08:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 16 May 2012 Volume: 11 Number: 3691
Today's topics:
Re: btree (Seymour J.)
Re: First Commercial Perl Program <ronaldljohnson@gmail.com>
Re: Goodbye, Tad McClellan (David Combs)
Re: Goodbye, Tad McClellan (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: hash <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>
Re: hash <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Re: hash <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>
Re: hash <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Objective C (OT) <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: Objective C (OT) <ac.russell@live.com>
Re: Objective C (OT) <tw+usenet@dionic.net>
Re: Objective C (OT) <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: Objective C (OT) (Seymour J.)
Re: Objective C (OT) <cartercc@gmail.com>
Re: Objective C (OT) <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Re: Taint mode help (Seymour J.)
Re: Timeout thread while it is in a system command <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
what is the meaning of $:: ? <mathematisch@gmail.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 13:40:34 -0400
From: Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
Subject: Re: btree
Message-Id: <4fb14392$5$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>
In <joq8vp$gor$1@news.ntua.gr>, on 05/11/2012
at 01:45 PM, "George Mpouras"
<nospam.gravitalsun@hotmail.com.nospam> said:
>I ve done some tests and found out
>that hash is faster than 'something' ~~ @array
That's what I would expect if hash is implimented as a hash table.
>From theory the btree alogorythm is faster than the hash
What theory?
>Is there any way to store my values as btree instead of hash in
Perl ?
Yes, but it would slow you down.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>
Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 May 2012 23:08:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: "tbb!/fbr!" <ronaldljohnson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: First Commercial Perl Program
Message-Id: <29955927.1127.1337062104996.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbyy9>
On Tuesday, May 1, 2012 8:55:52 AM UTC-7, Reini Urban wrote:
> Overall this approach is non-sense, as you might probably know as sysadmi=
n.
>=20
> 1. password in cleartext for ssh?
> never do that. even if the customer is to stupid to understand that, you=
=20
> should just refuse to do that and ssh-copy-id instead.
> if the target machine has ssh, copy your key over to it.
> only if its some antique router with telnet only, I saw plaintext=20
> passwords attempts, but then at least store them encrypted.
>=20
> 2. stupid config format
> there's a established format for this type of problem, which is=20
> basically the ssh connection format.
> user@hostname1
> user@hostname2
>=20
> 3. why perl when a simple shell script is much simplier and short?
> for h in `cat .config`; do
> ssh $h ls -l
> done
>=20
> oh my
> --=20
> Reini
1. This was a perl program for the client, and he defined the requirements.=
It had to be in perl. Yes, I'm a hardcore shell scripter/programmer as wel=
l, but I've given it up in favor of perl. He needed something to run identi=
cally on all machines, regardless of funky OS difference. He wanted that da=
tafile which contains the user and pass, and all hosts to be hit. The scrip=
t was his engine, so all he ever had to do to poll his various devices was =
to add a hostname or ip address. He didn't define security reqreuirements. =
My guess is that he was running this from a local machine (his laptop maybe=
) and simply wanted something in perl (again, the clients requirement) so h=
e could poll several hundred devices, which would probably be better in per=
l than in shell script anyways. And it's completely modular, and I look for=
ward to him to ask me for additional fucntionality.
2. stupid config format? that doesn't even qualify for a reply.
3. perl because that's what the client wanted.=20
Thanks,
Ron
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 04:24:00 +0000 (UTC)
From: dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs)
Subject: Re: Goodbye, Tad McClellan
Message-Id: <jova50$efa$1@reader1.panix.com>
In article <86vckdi6jt.fsf@red.stonehenge.com>,
Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>
>Longtime friend and senior Stonehenge trainer and manager Tad McClellan
>lost his battle with lung cancer on Sunday. Rest in peace, my friend.
>
>http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/dfw/obituary.aspx?n=tad-jeffrey-mcclellan&pid=157408300
>
>--
>Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
><merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
>Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
>See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
Wow, what a loss!
He's been here for so long -- what, was he one of the original founders
of this group?
David Combs
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:08:22 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Goodbye, Tad McClellan
Message-Id: <867gwcmfy1.fsf@red.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "David" == David Combs <dkcombs@panix.com> writes:
David> He's been here for so long -- what, was he one of the original founders
David> of this group?
Hardly. I think he got into Perl around 1994 or so. This group
was created around then, but was preceded by the classic
"comp.lang.perl" for at least a few years before that.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 08:42:13 +0200
From: Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>
Subject: Re: hash
Message-Id: <5fa989-9kq.ln1@news.rtij.nl>
On Mon, 14 May 2012 22:49:11 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 13:49:48 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>> Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:00:55 +0200, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>>>>>> George was talking about a btree, not a binary tree. Those are
>>>>>> fairly different beasts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I noted that too in an earlier posting, but btrees are normally
>>>>> used for on-disk data structures and they don't implement a binary
>>>>
>>>> Btrees are used all over the place, not just on-disk. OTOH, in memory
>>>> you are much more likely to actually use a red-black tree or similar,
>>>> but the interface and performance characteristics are so similar to a
>>>> btree that they are often called btrees as well.
>>>
>>> A 'red-black tree' is a balanced, binary search tree with the
>>> 'red-black' referring to a specific balancing algorithm.
>>
>> I actually ment skip lists (brain fart), but the statement is still not
>> incorrect.
>
> Since a B-tree is a more general tree structure than a binary search
> tree, every binary search tree is also a B-tree, just not vice versa.
> While that's not consistent with a statement you made in other
> subthread, it is surely 'not incorrect'. But this "data structures I
> heard of!"-bingo is IMO pretty pointless.
Well, that was not my intention. Mind responding to the point?
M4
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 12:11:40 +0100
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: hash
Message-Id: <873971vgur.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
> On Mon, 14 May 2012 22:49:11 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>
>> Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 13:49:48 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>>> Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, 14 May 2012 10:00:55 +0200, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
>>>>>>> George was talking about a btree, not a binary tree. Those are
>>>>>>> fairly different beasts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I noted that too in an earlier posting, but btrees are normally
>>>>>> used for on-disk data structures and they don't implement a binary
>>>>>
>>>>> Btrees are used all over the place, not just on-disk. OTOH, in memory
>>>>> you are much more likely to actually use a red-black tree or similar,
>>>>> but the interface and performance characteristics are so similar to a
>>>>> btree that they are often called btrees as well.
>>>>
>>>> A 'red-black tree' is a balanced, binary search tree with the
>>>> 'red-black' referring to a specific balancing algorithm.
>>>
>>> I actually ment skip lists (brain fart), but the statement is still not
>>> incorrect.
>>
>> Since a B-tree is a more general tree structure than a binary search
>> tree, every binary search tree is also a B-tree, just not vice versa.
>> While that's not consistent with a statement you made in other
>> subthread, it is surely 'not incorrect'. But this "data structures I
>> heard of!"-bingo is IMO pretty pointless.
>
> Well, that was not my intention. Mind responding to the point?
Which point?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 00:06:01 +0200
From: Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid>
Subject: Re: hash
Message-Id: <9j0b89-781.ln1@news.rtij.nl>
On Tue, 15 May 2012 12:11:40 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Which point?
Never mind. I don't feel like explaining everything.
M4
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 10:58:32 +0100
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: hash
Message-Id: <87ipfwla5z.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Martijn Lievaart <m@rtij.nl.invlalid> writes:
> On Tue, 15 May 2012 12:11:40 +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> Which point?
>
> Never mind. I don't feel like explaining everything.
And I 'feel' that you neither wrote anything even remotely related to
the original lookup question nor something which could be considered
'a point' at all, just a bunch of rambling statements about various
data structures. This may be wrong but if you can't be bothered with
expressing yourself clearly in face of a misunderstanding, whatever
you meant to express doesn't matter.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:02:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <48158322-b833-4cf0-9896-0aa0328d2ca3@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
I'm going to be teaching a young girl how to program a computer this
summer, and I've been thinking about likely candidates for a starter
language..
I've about settled on Objective C, primarily because of its use in
mobile apps, but secondarily because I don't know it and would like to
learn a little something about it. (The other two I thought about were
JavaScript and Python).
Two quick questions:
1. What's the 'best' reasonably priced book that's strong on the
basics and not too technical?
2. Is there any real good reason not to start off a young girl on this
language? My main goal is to show how source code turns into an
executable on a computer -- I don't want to get bogged down into heavy
duty stuff.
Thanks, CC.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:38:27 -0400
From: Adam Russell <ac.russell@live.com>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <5af58$4fb2bec4$813f0835$17530@news.eurofeeds.com>
On 5/15/12 4:02 PM, ccc31807 wrote:
> I'm going to be teaching a young girl how to program a computer this
> summer, and I've been thinking about likely candidates for a starter
> language..
>
> I've about settled on Objective C, primarily because of its use in
> mobile apps, but secondarily because I don't know it and would like to
> learn a little something about it. (The other two I thought about were
> JavaScript and Python).
>
> Two quick questions:
>
> 1. What's the 'best' reasonably priced book that's strong on the
> basics and not too technical?
>
> 2. Is there any real good reason not to start off a young girl on this
> language? My main goal is to show how source code turns into an
> executable on a computer -- I don't want to get bogged down into heavy
(1) I liked Cocoa and Objective-C by O'Reilly.
http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596804817.do
Like you I am interested in Objective-C just because of
its use by Apple. This book seemed to be a good introduction to both.
If I ever move beyond the basics I might invest in a book dedicated
to Objective-C but this is enough for now.
(2) I think that there is no reason whatsoever to not use this language.
I learned to program with Fortran and Pascal. Plenty of people learned
to program in Assembly. People need to give children more credit. The
move towards high level languages to teach basic programming is a bad
one imo. As her instructor its up to you to pace the lessons and
introduce more advanced concepts when she is ready. It may take longer
to get to interesting data structures than if you used say, Perl
but she is young so she has the advantage of time to learn difficult
concepts on her side. Just be sure to keep it fun to hold her interest.
I wonder though, just how young is "young"? I doubt many children under
the age of 12, say, have the attention span necessary to really engage
in a big project. From what I remember of learning to program in junior
highschool and highschool projects tended to be very focussed and
pretty short. From a pedagogical standpoint that may make sense (IANAT)
in that many short projects teaches and re-inforces more than one big
project. Thinking of books like K&R's C and even The Little Schemer
that approach is used for a far more advanced audience so it is likely
sound.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:44:56 +0100
From: Tim Watts <tw+usenet@dionic.net>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <8rra89-veb.ln1@squidward.local.dionic.net>
ccc31807 wrote:
> I'm going to be teaching a young girl how to program a computer this
> summer, and I've been thinking about likely candidates for a starter
> language..
How young exactly?
> I've about settled on Objective C, primarily because of its use in
> mobile apps, but secondarily because I don't know it and would like to
> learn a little something about it. (The other two I thought about were
> JavaScript and Python).
>
> Two quick questions:
>
> 1. What's the 'best' reasonably priced book that's strong on the
> basics and not too technical?
>
> 2. Is there any real good reason not to start off a young girl on this
> language? My main goal is to show how source code turns into an
> executable on a computer -- I don't want to get bogged down into heavy
> duty stuff.
>
> Thanks, CC.
Without knowing much apart from a quick glance, unless the objective is
specifically to demonstrate writing an app for an iPad/iPhone, I suspect
Obj-C is a bit obtuse - and limited in the sense it's not so widly used
outside of Apple/NeXT
I taught my young daughter (aged 8) some perl (seriously!) - written in a
very Sinclair BASIC style - eg not use of warnings/strict - just simple
procedural things wiht console I/O.
The approach I used was:
1) Very simple 1-2 liners - eg print 1+2, then introduce variables
2) Some very basic loops to knock out times tables
3) Generate a pair of random numbers say 0-10 and hav eit print a question:
X plus Y = ?
and have it read the answer and check it, with suitably humerous responses.
Method was to dictate code and have it do something (however minimal) after
every few lines. Then let her play the game (which did go down very well,
despite the "lameness".
Then I asked her if she could change it to produce numbers in the range
0-20, change it to doing "times" rather than "plus". With very little
hinting, she managed and was immediately pleased.
If the girl in question is older, you could teach perl in a more C like
fashion - which would form a good foundation for moving to C or Java (OK,
Java is OO, but she will not be so alienated by the general block syntax by
then).
Cheers,
Tim
--
Tim Watts
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:56:58 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <qhsa89-6vg2.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>
Quoth ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>:
> I'm going to be teaching a young girl how to program a computer this
> summer, and I've been thinking about likely candidates for a starter
> language..
>
> I've about settled on Objective C, primarily because of its use in
> mobile apps, but secondarily because I don't know it and would like to
> learn a little something about it.
That's perhaps not a good idea. It would probably be better to start
with a language you know well, since otherwise you will find questions
come up you don't know the answer to.
> (The other two I thought about were JavaScript and Python).
IMHO either of those would be better choices, as would Perl. For
learning the basics, an interpreted, dynamic language with automatic
memory management is much easier than anything like C. You need to
understand notions like 'variable' and 'reference' before you can even
start to understand malloc and type-safety.
(Although it's rightly condemned as a serious language, some variants of
BASIC make very good teaching languages. I started on BBC BASIC, and I
rather quickly found out for myself why unrestricted use of GOTO is a
bad idea...)
The only other thing I would say is that anyone who wants to be a
serious programmer ought to learn C at some point, just not first.
Getting a decent sense of what is actually being executed at the machine
code level is important, even if you don't intend to write at that level
in practice.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:35:07 -0400
From: Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <4fb3044b$12$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>
In <qhsa89-6vg2.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>, on 05/15/2012
at 09:56 PM, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> said:
>The only other thing I would say is that anyone who wants to be a
>serious programmer ought to learn C at some point, just not first.
>Getting a decent sense of what is actually being executed at the
>machine code level is important, even if you don't intend to write
>at that level in practice.
Learning C will not give you a sense of what is actually being
executed at the machine code level.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>
Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 06:35:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: ccc31807 <cartercc@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <1e22de47-4f91-40ea-b453-d7922f36a127@x7g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>
On May 15, 4:38=A0pm, Adam Russell <ac.russ...@live.com> wrote:
Thanks for all the replies, guys, but the question is now moot.
The girl is ten and attends a computer magnet school. She will be in
the 5th grade, and while there isn't any programming now, later on
they will get C++ and Java.
I was told last night that the 'language' of choice is HTML. This is
actually fine by me, because not only can I leverage the excitement of
a public site (giving her a domain for < $15.00) but I can also teach
command line FTP, and later on start small with JavaScript, and even
later (like in the coming years) delve into server side programming
and databases (perhaps via Java and JSP).
Thanks again for the replies and also thanks for the absence of flames
for an OT topic.
CC.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 15:43:17 +0100
From: bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
Subject: Re: Objective C (OT)
Message-Id: <Peadnc1DmNuYIC7SnZ2dnUVZ7t-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:
> In<qhsa89-6vg2.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>, on 05/15/2012
> at 09:56 PM, Ben Morrow<ben@morrow.me.uk> said:
>
>> The only other thing I would say is that anyone who wants to be a
>> serious programmer ought to learn C at some point, just not first.
>> Getting a decent sense of what is actually being executed at the
>> machine code level is important, even if you don't intend to write
>> at that level in practice.
>
> Learning C will not give you a sense of what is actually being
> executed at the machine code level.
Counter example: it did for me.
BugBear
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 21:43:33 -0400
From: Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid>
Subject: Re: Taint mode help
Message-Id: <4fb30645$13$fuzhry+tra$mr2ice@news.patriot.net>
In <fV45K0OBJxbE-pn2-4yg05oBtBKS3@localhost>, on 05/12/2012
at 10:57 AM, "Dave Saville" <dave@invalid.invalid> said:
>OS/2 :-)
What release? 5.8.8 worked fine for me on a current OS/2 and I'm
currently using 5.10; 5.14 sort of works but the remapping for
PERLLIB_PREFIX is truncating file names.
I've had good luck installing CPAN modules on eCS 2.0 using Perl 5.10
and Paul Smedley's build environment.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>
Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 12:08:51 +0100
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mssgmbh.com>
Subject: Re: Timeout thread while it is in a system command
Message-Id: <87bolpln0c.fsf@sapphire.mobileactivedefense.com>
Kasper Middelboe Petersen <fantyfant@gmail.com> writes:
> I have a seemingly simple problem. I need to execute a series of
> system commands (using `<cmd>`) in parallel.
>
> The code below has been stripped of anything meaningful besides
> demonstrating my problem:
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl -w
>
> use strict;
> use threads;
> use POSIX;
[...]
> POSIX::sigaction(SIGALRM, POSIX::SigAction->new(\&timeout));
>
> alarm(2);
>
> sub threadsub {
> sub handletimeout {
> print "KILL\n";
> threads->exit(1);
> }
> POSIX::sigaction(SIGALRM, POSIX::SigAction->new(\&handletimeout));
>
> # while(1) { sleep(1); }
> return `sleep 10`;
> }
[...]
> Now, the problem is the ALRM signal sent to the threads are never
> caught when the thread is blocked in the system call. If you uncomment
> the while loop the signal are caught as intended.
>
> How do I make this work so I'm able to timeout my threads even if
> they're stuck in the system command?
SIGALRM is a so-called asynchronous signal and this means that it may
be handled by any thread not currently blocking it, IOW, this can't
work: There will be one SIGALRM generated for the process once the
alarm expires, no matter how many threads were started and this will
interrupt one (arbitrarily selected) thread (your signal handler is
also not 'safe', meaning, should be process be doing something more
complicated than executing an inifinite loop or being blocked in a
system call, all kinds of weird things can result).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 03:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mathematisch <mathematisch@gmail.com>
Subject: what is the meaning of $:: ?
Message-Id: <60d676d6-f6a3-4af8-99dd-94e453e611d8@dg7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>
Hi,
I see this perl syntax "$::" in various scripts. What does it mean?
i.e.
$::VERSION = 0.01;
What would that be written in this way?
Thanks.
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3691
***************************************
