[31868] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 3131 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Sep 14 14:09:24 2010
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 11:09:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 14 Sep 2010 Volume: 11 Number: 3131
Today's topics:
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <kst-u@mib.org>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <stevemay@bogus.local>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? (Randal L. Schwartz)
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <uri@StemSystems.com>
Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter? <stevemay@bogus.local>
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Re: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revisi <ralph@happydays.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:16:04 -0500
From: Tad McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <slrni8t1ka.s15.tadmc@tadbox.sbcglobal.net>
Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Please pause for just a moment and consider the possibility that
> someone else might be right and you might be mistaken,
Rui mistaken? What an absurd suggestion!
Surely it must be everybody _else_ that is mistaken.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:08:13 -0700
From: Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <ln8w35guuq.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>
Tad McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid> writes:
> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
>> Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Please pause for just a moment and consider the possibility that
>> someone else might be right and you might be mistaken,
>
>
> Rui mistaken? What an absurd suggestion!
>
> Surely it must be everybody _else_ that is mistaken.
You're not helping. (Then again, I'm probably not helping either.)
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Nokia
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 01:16:21 GMT
From: "Steve M." <stevemay@bogus.local>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <F1Ajo.24045$pR1.19494@newsfe07.iad>
On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:49:15 +0100, Rui Maciel wrote:
> Tad McClellan wrote:
>
>> Do you believe that you are doing anone any favors by expecting us to
>> read the documentation to you?
>
> No one forces you to read anything. So, if you don't have anything
> productive to add then I suggest you waste your time elsewhere.
>
>
> Rui Maciel
Probably pointless, but perhaps...
Rui,
c.l.p.m. is (IMHO) an outstanding resource for gaining understanding of
Perl.
Reading posts/responses by some of the very people you seem intent on
ignoring, if not annoying, is the main reason I frequent the site.
If you had indeed spent much time lurking you'd have noted that a poster
who is willing to listen is treated very well indeed, regardless of their
expertise and/or misconceptions.
(I shudder to think what sort of code I'd still be writing without
pointers gleaned from this group.)
It seems strange to burn the bridge *before* you cross it, but to each
his own I guess.
--
\s
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 06:29:40 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <86pqwg4fnf.fsf@red.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "Steve" == Steve M <stevemay@bogus.local> writes:
Steve> It seems strange to burn the bridge *before* you cross it, but to each
Steve> his own I guess.
Ahh, but think of the efficiency! No need to cross *that* bridge!
:-)
print "Just another Perl hacker,"; # the original
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:00:38 +0100
From: Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <4c8f8e18$0$8629$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>
Steve M. wrote:
> Probably pointless, but perhaps...
>
> Rui,
>
> c.l.p.m. is (IMHO) an outstanding resource for gaining understanding of
> Perl.
No one is disputing that usenet newsgroups constitute invaluable sources of information. In fact,
usenet managed to become one of the best expert systems ever devised simply due to the possibility
it brings in getting answers on all kinds of topics, from those covering general aspects to corner
cases, along with the possibility of relying on archives and search engines to comb through the
backlog.
> Reading posts/responses by some of the very people you seem intent on
> ignoring, if not annoying, is the main reason I frequent the site.
You seem to have confused me with someone else. I haven't ignored anyone in this group, nor did I
ever stated, implicitly or explicitly, that I intended in ignoring anyone. If I did I wouldn't
have wasted my time with a hand full of misanthropic idiots whose only contribution to this thread
was trolling newbies and posting condescending messages. But if you think otherwise then be free
to point out where exactly I said something that made you believe I was ignoring anyone.
> If you had indeed spent much time lurking you'd have noted that a poster
> who is willing to listen is treated very well indeed, regardless of their
> expertise and/or misconceptions.
If you happen to follow this thread you would realize that there were plenty of helpful users who
managed to help by posting informative messages in a civilized and polite tone, which were
fundamental in helping me understand how a basic feature of Perl operates.
Yet, there were also a hand full of misanthropic idiots who did their best to pollute this
newsgroup with insulting messages which were devoid of any value and had absolutely nothing to do
with this subject, and by doing so succeeded in injecting a lot of noise into this newsgroup.
Once you are aware of that, you can easily see that commenting on anyone's "willingness to listen"
is immaterial to this discussion, due to the fact that you are referring to the "willingness to
listen" to trolls whose only role in this discussion was to get their anti-social rocks off while
having absolutely no intention to help anyone out.
Rui Maciel
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:13:06 +0100
From: Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <4c8f9f15$0$8651$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>
Uri Guttman wrote:
> you fail in learning a language.
I've managed to learn C and C++, along with about half a dozen toolkits and libraries. If you
believe that this particular programming language is so unique that no relevant information on it
can be found on the web then you leave me with the impression that you don't know how a search
engine is or should be used.
And by the way, do you know how people manage to search through this group's backlog? With the
help of a search engine.
> searching the web for language stuff is
> the worst way to learn. there is too much garbage out there to sift
> through and google does NOT rank quality of web tutorials.
I see what you mean and you are right, there is a lot of garbage out there. Yet, you also have
the ability to judge that information and, the more you learn about a given subject and the more
you search, you continuously develop an understanding of what constitutes a good source and what
should be ignored.
Moreover, it's quite possible to extract meaningful information from "tainted" sources. So, if
you promptly discard "bad" sources of information (bad, according to who?) without even thinking
about it then you are doing yourself a disservice.
> too many have
> links to them which ranks them higher even though they are crap. if you
> google for me in the perl usenet group you will find many reviews of
> perl tutorials. the vast majority of them suck python dick. they are
> buggy, incomplete, poorly written, use bad perl, etc. so that is what
> you think is a good thing to google. your choice.
>
> RM> Oddly enough, the very first document I read on perl was
> RM> perl.com's beginner's introduction to Perl, which fails to mention
> RM> such a fundamental aspect of Perl. So, if you happen to lurk this
> RM> newsgroup to maintain that sort of info in perl.com then I have to
> RM> say you have a lot of room to improve your contributions.
>
> and did you even look at perldoc perl which shows perldoc perlsub which
> covers all you needed to know?
Yes, thanks to helpful people from this newsgroup who
> learning how to use docs is a skill. so
> is usenet. learn them first. you have burned many potential bridges here
> already. are you proud of that. you won't be getting help from some of
> the best perl hackers around.
I know how to read docs and how to use usenet. What I lack is the ability to receive insults from
misanthropic idiots who acts as if everyone owes them something and believe that newbies should be
forced to assume a submissive posture before them and their condescending blurbs.
So, regarding your "burning bridges" comment, some people, no matter how technically proficient
they may be, simply aren't civilized. They, unfortunately, are unable to show any semblance of
respect or any glimpse of common courtesy while interacting with others. They simply don't know
any better and therefore are complete failures at dealing with other people. It's on everyone's
best interests to avoid any contact with those misanthropic idiots.
Thankfully, not everyone is like that. The majority of us aren't hampered by that problem and, as
a consequence, are perfectly capable of interacting with people, even capable of being a pleasure
to deal with.
So, given a choice, everyone will certainly choose to interact with the people belonging to the
latter group.
This newsgroup is opened to all. As a consequence, some decent folk subscribe to it, along with
some anti-social morons who only deal with other people if they are forced to. Everyone is free
to read any post and everyone is free to post/reply too.
This is a terribly good thing. That means that everyone is free to post questions, as everyone is
free to reply to those questions if they feel like it. If by your alleged "bridge burning" I've
managed to stave off a few of those misanthropic idiots who are physically unable to post a
helpful reply without first taking out of their system the need to insult and demean everyone in
their range... I don't see how that's a bad thing. After all, if they can't/don't know how to be
helpful then why should anyone want their help? They would be wasting their time and just
injecting pollution into this newsgroup.
And better yet, this "opens the stage" to those fellow Perl hackers who, although might not be so
proficient in the language, also manage to know their stuff. Better yet, they are more than
capable of contributing positively to the community, not only by spreading knowledge but also by
succeeding in turning the community into a healthy one, one which isn't trolled by people who
failed at life and believes the world is out to get them.
> i help tons of people here. for many years. and in other areas i
> contribute to the perl community. you know not of which you speak.
So, then, you should act it instead of only preaching it.
> you are here asking for help but you pissed off many.
Clearly, if a simple, innocuous question made by a newbie pisses off some people then those who
were pissed off by it should simply stay away from public forums, particularly those where newbies
are free to post. They do a disservice to the community by making it look like it's plagued by
misanthropic idiots who act as if the whole world owes them something.
> the culture here has existing for decades
So it's high time to fix that problem, isn't it?
> and you expect to come in and be spoon fed your
> way?
You seem to be confused or you simply failed to follow the thread, as nowhere I've expected to be
"spoon fed" anything. If you want to criticize me or any of my posts please base your accusations
on reality.
> that isn't how the world or usenet works.
I see. You are either confused or you simply don't know what usenet is or stands for. But do
take your time to familiarize yourself with it in order to avoid making silly claims.
Rui Maciel
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:13:19 -0700
From: merlyn@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz)
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <86lj74482o.fsf@red.stonehenge.com>
>>>>> "Rui" == Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
Rui> You seem to have confused me with someone else. I haven't ignored
Rui> anyone in this group, nor did I ever stated, implicitly or
Rui> explicitly, that I intended in ignoring anyone.
And yet, again, you have, demonstrated by this very post. Your line
lengths are excessive. Thus, you have ignored all of us who have said
"please follow Usenet convention".
You cannot thus claim to have not ignored anyone. You are ignoring us.
Please stop lying. You have already been tagged unteachable by many of
the experts here, and are rapidly being tagged as such by most of the
rest. Good luck with that. Let us know how that works out for you.
print "Just another Perl hacker,"; # the original
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 18:17:38 +0100
From: Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <ian4m7-9oh2.ln1@osiris.mauzo.dyndns.org>
Quoth Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com>:
>
> So, regarding your "burning bridges" comment, some people, no matter how
> technically proficient
> they may be, simply aren't civilized. They, unfortunately, are unable
> to show any semblance of
> respect or any glimpse of common courtesy while interacting with others.
> They simply don't know
> any better and therefore are complete failures at dealing with other
> people. It's on everyone's
> best interests to avoid any contact with those misanthropic idiots.
Pot, kettle, *plonk*.
Ben
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 13:42:31 -0400
From: "Uri Guttman" <uri@StemSystems.com>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <87aank6x2w.fsf@quad.sysarch.com>
>>>>> "RM" == Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> writes:
RM> Uri Guttman wrote:
>> you fail in learning a language.
RM> I've managed to learn C and C++, along with about half a dozen
RM> toolkits and libraries. If you believe that this particular
RM> programming language is so unique that no relevant information on
RM> it can be found on the web then you leave me with the impression
RM> that you don't know how a search engine is or should be used.
and i learned pl1 36 years ago. bfd.
RM> And by the way, do you know how people manage to search through
RM> this group's backlog? With the help of a search engine.
and that is specific to a known good source of perl information. the web
is not such a beast.
>> searching the web for language stuff is
>> the worst way to learn. there is too much garbage out there to sift
>> through and google does NOT rank quality of web tutorials.
RM> I see what you mean and you are right, there is a lot of garbage
RM> out there. Yet, you also have the ability to judge that
RM> information and, the more you learn about a given subject and the
RM> more you search, you continuously develop an understanding of what
RM> constitutes a good source and what should be ignored.
no. i didn't learn how to determine garbage from looking at garbage. i
learned good perl and general programming over decades of study. then i
reviewed perl sites and found them to be mostly garbage.
RM> Moreover, it's quite possible to extract meaningful information
RM> from "tainted" sources. So, if you promptly discard "bad" sources
RM> of information (bad, according to who?) without even thinking
RM> about it then you are doing yourself a disservice.
no, tainted is tainted. you never know what is good or bad. see matt's
script archives for the classic example. try to learn perl from
them. too many kiddies did and they ruined the web for a decade.
RM> Oddly enough, the very first document I read on perl was
RM> perl.com's beginner's introduction to Perl, which fails to mention
RM> such a fundamental aspect of Perl. So, if you happen to lurk this
RM> newsgroup to maintain that sort of info in perl.com then I have to
RM> say you have a lot of room to improve your contributions.
how could a basic intro cover all the core issues? you are way off base
here as usual. you don't know how to learn from solid docs themselves,
so you blame a tutorial which is limited by nature. you read the
reference docs to learn what actually is happening.
RM> I know how to read docs and how to use usenet. What I lack is the
RM> ability to receive insults from misanthropic idiots who acts as if
RM> everyone owes them something and believe that newbies should be
RM> forced to assume a submissive posture before them and their
RM> condescending blurbs.
no, you don't know how to receive insults. you take them the wrong way
and fight back like a bigger idiot and child. you pissed off most of the
core regulars here in about 2 days. that is close to a record. put that
on your mantle and brag about it.
RM> So, regarding your "burning bridges" comment, some people, no
RM> matter how technically proficient they may be, simply aren't
RM> civilized. They, unfortunately, are unable to show any semblance
RM> of respect or any glimpse of common courtesy while interacting
RM> with others. They simply don't know any better and therefore are
RM> complete failures at dealing with other people. It's on
RM> everyone's best interests to avoid any contact with those
RM> misanthropic idiots.
you keep using those words and you don't know what they mean. look in a
mirror sometime and take the blame yourself. pissing off so many people
almost always means you are the guilty party. but you won't accept any
blame which proves even more what a twit you are. grow up.
uri
--
Uri Guttman ------ uri@stemsystems.com -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
--------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:50:52 GMT
From: "Steve M." <stevemay@bogus.local>
Subject: Re: How to pass hash as sub parameter?
Message-Id: <0COjo.55383$u16.1177@newsfe17.iad>
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 16:00:38 +0100, Rui Maciel wrote:
> If you happen to follow this thread you would realize that there were
> plenty of helpful users who managed to help by posting informative
> messages in a civilized and polite tone, which were fundamental in
> helping me understand how a basic feature of Perl operates.
>
Folks here are Programmers for the most part.
Programmers tend to be pretty direct, logical, and to the point in their
area of expertise.
Deal with it.
Or, if you want the 'touchy feely' approach, visit a psychiatrist.
Hmmmmmm....
> Yet, there were also a hand full of misanthropic idiots who did their
> best to pollute this newsgroup with insulting messages which were devoid
> of any value and had absolutely nothing to do with this subject, and by
> doing so succeeded in injecting a lot of noise into this newsgroup.
>
Uri/Tad/Etc are misanthropic idiots who pollute the group with insulting
messages devoid of any value?
ROTFL
And *you* have the gall to bitch about noise to signal?
*plonk*
--
\s
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 02:09:53 -0500
From: tadmc@seesig.invalid
Subject: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <d8adnevDbdhcghLRnZ2dnUVZ5tudnZ2d@giganews.com>
Outline
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
- Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
Really Really Should
- Lurk for a while before posting
- Search a Usenet archive
If You Like
- Check Other Resources
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Is there a better place to ask your question?
- Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
- Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
- Use an effective followup style
- Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
- Ask perl to help you
- Do not re-type Perl code
- Provide enough information
- Do not provide too much information
- Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
Social faux pas to avoid
- Asking a Frequently Asked Question
- Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
- Asking for emailed answers
- Beware of saying "doesn't work"
- Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
Be extra cautious when you get upset
- Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
- Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
This newsgroup, commonly called clpmisc, is a technical newsgroup
intended to be used for discussion of Perl related issues (except job
postings), whether it be comments or questions.
As you would expect, clpmisc discussions are usually very technical in
nature and there are conventions for conduct in technical newsgroups
going somewhat beyond those in non-technical newsgroups.
The article at:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
describes how to get answers from technical people in general.
This article describes things that you should, and should not, do to
increase your chances of getting an answer to your Perl question. It is
available in POD, HTML and plain text formats at:
http://www.rehabitation.com/clpmisc.shtml
For more information about netiquette in general, see the "Netiquette
Guidelines" at:
http://andrew2.andrew.cmu.edu/rfc/rfc1855.html
A note to newsgroup "regulars":
Do not use these guidelines as a "license to flame" or other
meanness. It is possible that a poster is unaware of things
discussed here. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and just
help them learn how to post, rather than assume that they do
know and are being the "bad kind" of Lazy.
A note about technical terms used here:
In this document, we use words like "must" and "should" as
they're used in technical conversation (such as you will
encounter in this newsgroup). When we say that you *must* do
something, we mean that if you don't do that something, then
it's unlikely that you will benefit much from this group.
We're not bossing you around; we're making the point without
lots of words.
Do *NOT* send email to the maintainer of these guidelines. It will be
discarded unread. The guidelines belong to the newsgroup so all
discussion should appear in the newsgroup. I am just the secretary that
writes down the consensus of the group.
Before posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
Must
This section describes things that you *must* do before posting to
clpmisc, in order to maximize your chances of getting meaningful replies
to your inquiry and to avoid getting flamed for being lazy and trying to
have others do your work.
The perl distribution includes documentation that is copied to your hard
drive when you install perl. Also installed is a program for looking
things up in that (and other) documentation named 'perldoc'.
You should either find out where the docs got installed on your system,
or use perldoc to find them for you. Type "perldoc perldoc" to learn how
to use perldoc itself. Type "perldoc perl" to start reading Perl's
standard documentation.
Check the Perl Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Checking the FAQ before posting is required in Big 8 newsgroups in
general, there is nothing clpmisc-specific about this requirement.
You are expected to do this in nearly all newsgroups.
You can use the "-q" switch with perldoc to do a word search of the
questions in the Perl FAQs.
Check the other standard Perl docs (*.pod)
The perl distribution comes with much more documentation than is
available for most other newsgroups, so in clpmisc you should also
see if you can find an answer in the other (non-FAQ) standard docs
before posting.
It is *not* required, or even expected, that you actually *read* all of
Perl's standard docs, only that you spend a few minutes searching them
before posting.
Try doing a word-search in the standard docs for some words/phrases
taken from your problem statement or from your very carefully worded
"Subject:" header.
Really Really Should
This section describes things that you *really should* do before posting
to clpmisc.
Lurk for a while before posting
This is very important and expected in all newsgroups. Lurking means
to monitor a newsgroup for a period to become familiar with local
customs. Each newsgroup has specific customs and rituals. Knowing
these before you participate will help avoid embarrassing social
situations. Consider yourself to be a foreigner at first!
Search a Usenet archive
There are tens of thousands of Perl programmers. It is very likely
that your question has already been asked (and answered). See if you
can find where it has already been answered.
One such searchable archive is:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
If You Like
This section describes things that you *can* do before posting to
clpmisc.
Check Other Resources
You may want to check in books or on web sites to see if you can
find the answer to your question.
But you need to consider the source of such information: there are a
lot of very poor Perl books and web sites, and several good ones
too, of course.
Posting to comp.lang.perl.misc
There can be 200 messages in clpmisc in a single day. Nobody is going to
read every article. They must decide somehow which articles they are
going to read, and which they will skip.
Your post is in competition with 199 other posts. You need to "win"
before a person who can help you will even read your question.
These sections describe how you can help keep your article from being
one of the "skipped" ones.
Is there a better place to ask your question?
Question should be about Perl, not about the application area
It can be difficult to separate out where your problem really is,
but you should make a conscious effort to post to the most
applicable newsgroup. That is, after all, where you are the most
likely to find the people who know how to answer your question.
Being able to "partition" a problem is an essential skill for
effectively troubleshooting programming problems. If you don't get
that right, you end up looking for answers in the wrong places.
It should be understood that you may not know that the root of your
problem is not Perl-related (the two most frequent ones are CGI and
Operating System related), so off-topic postings will happen from
time to time. Be gracious when someone helps you find a better place
to ask your question by pointing you to a more applicable newsgroup.
How to participate (post) in the clpmisc community
Carefully choose the contents of your Subject header
You have 40 precious characters of Subject to win out and be one of
the posts that gets read. Don't waste them. Take care while
composing them, they are the key that opens the door to getting an
answer.
Spend them indicating what aspect of Perl others will find if they
should decide to read your article.
Do not spend them indicating "experience level" (guru, newbie...).
Do not spend them pleading (please read, urgent, help!...).
Do not spend them on non-Subjects (Perl question, one-word
Subject...)
For more information on choosing a Subject see "Choosing Good
Subject Lines":
http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/D/DM/DMR/subjects.post
Part of the beauty of newsgroup dynamics, is that you can contribute
to the community with your very first post! If your choice of
Subject leads a fellow Perler to find the thread you are starting,
then even asking a question helps us all.
Use an effective followup style
When composing a followup, quote only enough text to establish the
context for the comments that you will add. Always indicate who
wrote the quoted material. Never quote an entire article. Never
quote a .signature (unless that is what you are commenting on).
Intersperse your comments *following* each section of quoted text to
which they relate. Unappreciated followup styles are referred to as
"top-posting", "Jeopardy" (because the answer comes before the
question), or "TOFU" (Text Over, Fullquote Under).
Reversing the chronology of the dialog makes it much harder to
understand (some folks won't even read it if written in that style).
For more information on quoting style, see:
http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html
Speak Perl rather than English, when possible
Perl is much more precise than natural language. Saying it in Perl
instead will avoid misunderstanding your question or problem.
Do not say: I have variable with "foo\tbar" in it.
Instead say: I have $var = "foo\tbar", or I have $var = 'foo\tbar',
or I have $var = <DATA> (and show the data line).
Ask perl to help you
You can ask perl itself to help you find common programming mistakes
by doing two things: enable warnings (perldoc warnings) and enable
"strict"ures (perldoc strict).
You should not bother the hundreds/thousands of readers of the
newsgroup without first seeing if a machine can help you find your
problem. It is demeaning to be asked to do the work of a machine. It
will annoy the readers of your article.
You can look up any of the messages that perl might issue to find
out what the message means and how to resolve the potential mistake
(perldoc perldiag). If you would like perl to look them up for you,
you can put "use diagnostics;" near the top of your program.
Do not re-type Perl code
Use copy/paste or your editor's "import" function rather than
attempting to type in your code. If you make a typo you will get
followups about your typos instead of about the question you are
trying to get answered.
Provide enough information
If you do the things in this item, you will have an Extremely Good
chance of getting people to try and help you with your problem!
These features are a really big bonus toward your question winning
out over all of the other posts that you are competing with.
First make a short (less than 20-30 lines) and *complete* program
that illustrates the problem you are having. People should be able
to run your program by copy/pasting the code from your article. (You
will find that doing this step very often reveals your problem
directly. Leading to an answer much more quickly and reliably than
posting to Usenet.)
Describe *precisely* the input to your program. Also provide example
input data for your program. If you need to show file input, use the
__DATA__ token (perldata.pod) to provide the file contents inside of
your Perl program.
Show the output (including the verbatim text of any messages) of
your program.
Describe how you want the output to be different from what you are
getting.
If you have no idea at all of how to code up your situation, be sure
to at least describe the 2 things that you *do* know: input and
desired output.
Do not provide too much information
Do not just post your entire program for debugging. Most especially
do not post someone *else's* entire program.
Do not post binaries, HTML, or MIME
clpmisc is a text only newsgroup. If you have images or binaries
that explain your question, put them in a publically accessible
place (like a Web server) and provide a pointer to that location. If
you include code, cut and paste it directly in the message body.
Don't attach anything to the message. Don't post vcards or HTML.
Many people (and even some Usenet servers) will automatically filter
out such messages. Many people will not be able to easily read your
post. Plain text is something everyone can read.
Social faux pas to avoid
The first two below are symptoms of lots of FAQ asking here in clpmisc.
It happens so often that folks will assume that it is happening yet
again. If you have looked but not found, or found but didn't understand
the docs, say so in your article.
Asking a Frequently Asked Question
It should be understood that you may have missed the applicable FAQ
when you checked, which is not a big deal. But if the Frequently
Asked Question is worded similar to your question, folks will assume
that you did not look at all. Don't become indignant at pointers to
the FAQ, particularly if it solves your problem.
Asking a question easily answered by a cursory doc search
If folks think you have not even tried the obvious step of reading
the docs applicable to your problem, they are likely to become
annoyed.
If you are flamed for not checking when you *did* check, then just
shrug it off (and take the answer that you got).
Asking for emailed answers
Emailed answers benefit one person. Posted answers benefit the
entire community. If folks can take the time to answer your
question, then you can take the time to go get the answer in the
same place where you asked the question.
It is OK to ask for a *copy* of the answer to be emailed, but many
will ignore such requests anyway. If you munge your address, you
should never expect (or ask) to get email in response to a Usenet
post.
Ask the question here, get the answer here (maybe).
Beware of saying "doesn't work"
This is a "red flag" phrase. If you find yourself writing that,
pause and see if you can't describe what is not working without
saying "doesn't work". That is, describe how it is not what you
want.
Sending a "stealth" Cc copy
A "stealth Cc" is when you both email and post a reply without
indicating *in the body* that you are doing so.
Be extra cautious when you get upset
Count to ten before composing a followup when you are upset
This is recommended in all Usenet newsgroups. Here in clpmisc, most
flaming sub-threads are not about any feature of Perl at all! They
are most often for what was seen as a breach of netiquette. If you
have lurked for a bit, then you will know what is expected and won't
make such posts in the first place.
But if you get upset, wait a while before writing your followup. I
recommend waiting at least 30 minutes.
Count to ten after composing and before posting when you are upset
After you have written your followup, wait *another* 30 minutes
before committing yourself by posting it. You cannot take it back
once it has been said.
AUTHOR
Tad McClellan and many others on the comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup.
--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:43:13 -0400
From: Ralph Malph <ralph@happydays.com>
Subject: Re: Posting Guidelines for comp.lang.perl.misc ($Revision: 1.9 $)
Message-Id: <87f5a$4c8f7bf1$ce534406$10790@news.eurofeeds.com>
[snip]
yaf, r?
tl, dnr
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
Back issues are available via anonymous ftp from
ftp://cil-www.oce.orst.edu/pub/perl/old-digests.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 3131
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